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  1. Shadowman99 on

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _________
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ./ It’s a Trap!
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _,,,–~~~~~~~~–,_ . . . . . /
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    . . . . . . . . .,-‘ / / : :: :: :: :: : : :::: :::-, ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ;; ; . . . . . . . .
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    . . . . . . . /,’,-‘ :: :: :: :: :: :: :: : ::_,-~~,_’-, ;; ;; ;; ;; | . . . . . . .
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    . . . ,-‘ / : : : : : : ,-‘’’ : : :,–‘’ | /,-‘-‘–‘’’__,’’’ ;; ;,-‘ . . . . . . . .
    . . . :/,, : : : _,-‘ –,,_ : : : ||/ /,-‘-‘x### :: ;;/ . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . / /—‘’’’ : # : : : : : | | : (O##º : :/ /-‘’ . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . /,’____ : : ‘-# : , : : : : ‘-,___,-‘,-`-,, . . . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . ‘ ) : : : :’’’’–,,–,,,,,,¯ :: ::–,,_’’-,,’’’¯ :’- :’-, . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . .) : : : : : : ,, : ‘’’’~~~~’ :: :: :: :’’’’’¯ :: ,-‘ :,/ . . . . . . . . .
    . . . . .,/ /|\| | :/ / : : : : : : : ,’-, :: :: :: :: ::,–‘’ :,-‘ . . . . . . . .
    . . . . .\’|\ |/ ‘/ / :: :_–,, : , | )’; :: :: :: :,-‘’ : ,-‘ : : : , . . . . . . .
    . . . ./¯ | : |/ :: ::—-, :/ / :: :: ,-‘’ : :,-‘ : : : : : : ‘’-,,_ . . . .
    . . ..| : : :/ ‘’-(, :: :: :: ‘’’’’~,,,,,’’ :: ,-‘’ : :,-‘ : : : : : : : : :,-‘’’\ . . . .
    . ,-‘ : : : | : : ‘’) : : :¯’’’’~-,: : ,–‘’’ : :,-‘’ : : : : : : : : : ,-‘ :¯’’’’’-,_ .
    ./ : : : : :’-, :: | :: :: :: _,,-‘’’’¯ : ,–‘’ : : : : : : : : : : : / : : : : : : :’’-,
    / : : : : : -, :¯’’’’’’’’’’’¯ : : _,,-~’’ : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
    : : : : : : : :¯’’~~~~~~’’’ : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : | : : : : : : : : :

  2. Microsoft don't understand what open source is and what it really means. All they want is for people to migrate to their systems. They have _never_ done anything good that wasn't a part of that plan.

  3. Also, thank you Bart for linking to a groklaw, and not just some MS PR propaganda.

  4. This is a Microsoft free zone! Mircosoft could learn a lot from Google and it's do-no-evil philosophy. Unfortunatly im still on XP but this only furthurs my resolve to not buy from Microsoft again, I will miss Photoshop, and the whole Adobe cast though.

  5. If MS want to support blender better then they should fix the crippled OpenGL support. personally i would like to see Blender drop support for Microsoft Windows.

  6. @Irowebot

    "I will miss Photoshop, and the whole Adobe cast though."

    Why? I'm running a (legal) copy of photoshop CS2 and Flex Builder on my linux box without any major problems.

  7. Google and it's do-no-evil philosophy

    yeah yeah... what about google in china?....

  8. lol just read it and I to think it is a trap, they want to know the file types so they can make addons or changes so they won't work in linux anymore :)
    But not that you can blame them being competitive, but helping them is another thing.

  9. Trinity5150 on

    Something about that letter just doesn't sound right. I think if MS really wants to be more open, They need to make windows free and make it so there is no product key required and then open the source code to the general public. I don't think MS is capable of doing that because that would be an honest thing to do.

  10. If they truly supported those formats, they would've already. They damn well know ODF is the true document standard, not their own contrived formats.

    Aside from that, can't they just use google or msn and figure out what formats Blender users want? Read the bugtracker or download graphicall builds? Seems like a useless e-mail to me.

  11. What file formats does MS want to support? and why? as far as I am concerned Blender runs good enough on MS to keep me happy.
    I have never bought a copy of windows, and never will. Not only because it does not fully support Opensource, but it rarely supports its own apps without crashing horribaly, take vista for example. F**k off MS.

  12. What Microsoft formats could Blender possibly be interested in? Probably none.
    The Groklaw article seems to just use this non-event as an excuse for another long-winded tirade.

  13. delic,
    MS Office specs have been published, so if anyone wants to support PowerPoint, nothing is stopping them.

  14. I had enough, with blendernation and groklaw comments. soon in slashdot (oops not in slashdot)
    Another dirty-tactic-seems-valid-in-the-name-of-business. Blender is moving forward beautifully. MS don't mess with it. What MS can do is improve OpenGL support, not with this f****g file format thing.

  15. I also think it would be absolutely hilarious if blender dropped windows support in the latest versions... but that's totally not practical yet and won't happen until we take their market share down below like 10%, which will take several years at least.

  16. Pavel Siska on

    Don't let Microsoft mess with Blender.....
    Think - this big company is only focused on increasing its money base.... All nice words cannot change it...
    Really I hate Microsoft and their commercial policy!!!!!!!

  17. TheRealKove on

    It seems both paranoid and not very intelligent to turn down Microsoft assistance without at least hearing what they have to offer. They do after all make one of the platforms that Blender runs on. They have access to information that can help us make Blender better.

    The basic idea of Open source is that anyone who wants to help is welcome, even Microsoft. We just have to be careful and not accept anything from them that is in conflict with our open source philosophy.

    It's simple really: If the help comes free of charge, accept it. If they have conditions attached to the help just say no thanks.

  18. "Microsoft's Open Source Support team". That's the best joke in ages!

    I'm not a software developer so I can't see what any Microsoft interference could do to improve Blender? Blender is already the fastest, leanest, and most stable bit of software on my machine, especially when compared with any of their own irritating Office products. If Microsoft are pretending to show an interest it's simply because they don't have a 3D application / format, but their big rival Google has.

  19. TheRealKove..I am not a paranoid and my friends would tell you that I am very here is my point...
    Could you imagine situation when Microsoft is supporting blender like the other applications which are supported by MS, so they would actually discriminate other Linux or Macs....
    Only what they want is to make Blender more Microsoftish, and less Linuxish or Macish :)
    THIS company only want to make its position on the trade STRONGER !!!! They prove it in past, in present and IT IS their future strategy!!!!!!!
    Yeah is that simple, I don't understand why nobody see it!!!!

  20. Well, they could take the stupid 1.5Gb memory limitation per program, allowing blender to use all the system free memory, that would help allot :)
    They also could make windows use less memory when doing nothing and give it to Blender, improve the OpenGL system, remove the virus... and they will be in the right way ;)
    None of the mentioned things riquire any kind of help from the Blender Guys, they can do it all by themselfs ^_^
    I like Windows allot, and I would like to keep using it with Blender. So please Mr. Microsoft's Open Source support, Improve it the best you can, but don't anoy blender guys, they are busy improving Blender ^_~

  21. I used Windows in the past and I now regret every minute of it. If you help people use Blender, that's good, but make Blender more for the truly open source users like Linux users, don't ever make it "built for Windows".

  22. They want to destroy their competitors(Linux, Mac,...), and build their monopol even a bigger then now!!!!
    Make Blender more Microsoftish mean make him less it's kind of sad for me see people agreeing about that..... WE must kept together and don't let MS to make our pure open blender community dirty....

  23. How about some silverlight export? Just kidding... Couldn't resist... xD But honestly... We could use some better integration of MSN Live Spaces! xD Or a better support for plain text files! ;D

    Guys, as far as I'm understanding, they don't want to help directly improving Blender like "Oh sure we will code 20.000 lines of code for you to make Blender faster on Vista". It's more indirect by sharing knowledge about their own file formats, like "If your developers want to know how Excel files work, we can tell them." Because, if everybody supports MS files that makes them standard file formats. And if your company owns the standard format you can control it's new features and you can make sure your own products will be the first to support those new features. And of course all other products will be depending from you.

    I dunno... Somehow I feel a disturbance in the force...

  24. Sparkus: I feel it too ;) My intuition never lied to me!
    We can make it without them!!!! So why we should join.....

  25. I see your point, and you are right, Microsoft wants to be big, stay big and grow bigger. But the Blender Foundation is in a position where it can pick and chose what to implement in it's project. If Microsoft offers information and assistance that makes Blender a better software then we should accept their help.

    Open source is based on accepting volonteered help. Microsoft is offering their assistance, basically asking "what can we do to make blender run better on windows?". We should accept. If for nothing else than to see if they are sincere. If we don't like what they give us we just won't use it.

  26. I've read this a few times, and every time a new alarmbell rings in my head.
    Like Mike said, they could've supported those formats, appications etc ages ago.
    They have names for these strategies of theirs. FUD, EEE, etc etc....

    Don't trust them, don't reply, just don't do bussines with them.

  27. Freakydude: Absolutely agree!!!!!!

    Yeah but how you can be sure that this kind of game with this company would be completely ok....
    Maybe I must say it a little clearer.....
    You said "Microsoft wants to be big, stay big and grow bigger." that's everyone here probably agree..... So I would like to complete you....
    They want to make money, a lot of money...
    They asked what they can do to make blender better on windows.... What they really want is to see people migrating on their windows saying
    "Hey, here in Windows is better ***I don't know, some sort of update**** so I will use Windows instead of linux or mac,beacuse of this great update, oh but I must buy it...:( I don't have money to buy windows and with this new blocking system which is MS installing automaticly on my Vista I can't even crack it!!! So I must use Linux, but isn't this great what I gonna do? Oh maan I must buy the windows, what the f**k, I don't have a choice."
    In a way, Two Blenders, one better one worst (better on windows, worst on other OS - this MS wants to see :)
    But Blender community is open right? This could be start of the new community which I don't want to be part of!!!!

  28. "Are there files in the Windows universe you need to have
    a better Blender user experience?"

    Well, I wouldn't mind if Microsoft allowed Blender Game Engine to build xBox games :p

    Or could they allow other systems like mac and linux to make use of directX mmmh?


    Oh nevermind...


    MS plans for Blender :
    - Drop OpenGL support
    - Entice blender staff to use Direct X 11 and use Basic instead of python for Blender VIsta
    - Blender dies in its own poop while MS struggle to debug Direct X 11

  29. Vassilios Boucer on

    I have to say also....
    Don't trust them, don't reply, just don't do bussines with them.

  30. I am thinking about initiate a petition to eject a person that has been assigned to us from MS...

  31. Microsoft, evil...yes.
    on the other hand they are trying to make a profit, they pay a lot of people and support those peoples families...does Bill need 8 Ferrari's' that is too much time to give some back Bill.
    I would't worry about .blend file support though. It's a common thing to support multiple formats.

  32. Currently, Microsoft have little or no reason to care whether Open Source software like Blender can be made to run *better* under Windows XP or Vista. It only generates work for them and makes no profit. Blender runs fine under XP or Vista, so nobody would buy a copy of Windows XP or Vista just because Blender had been made to run a bit quicker on it than their Mac/Linux system.

    However, "Open source support" is probably a necessary part of their long term strategy. The next version of Windows will probably have even more crazy graphics demands, and they want to make sure that the new OS won't actually *stop* people buying a new Windows PC, simply because it won't run their favourite (i.e. open source) software any more. Microsoft need to evaluate what technologies all the major Open Source software relies on, then make sure they support that in the next version of Windows.

    Failing to support Open Source favourites like Blender would guarantee a mass migration away from Windows.

  33. Okay - I see the reasons why not to trust Microsoft on this and I largely agree so far. If they say they want open formats then they should deliver open formats. Actually I agree to about everyting written in the Groklaw link above.

    Still to all those saying that it would be funny to drop windows support for Blender: That's just as bad for a real open code community as microsoft trying to create Windows-Specifics. It's against being really open to any platform anywhere and just as biased as microsoft is in seeing OpenSource as a battle to win.

    Open Source should be like Swiss - neutral ;)

  34. anomalous_underdog on

    Hi, we're Microsoft. Oh, by the way, we're open-source!

    …………………………_,,,--~’’¯¯ ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;¯’’-,,_………………………………………………….
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  35. *Quote*
    I would like to know what feedback you might have received
    regarding the files your users most often import and those they might
    be having a sub-optimal experience with

    Yes I would like to be able to open up all known formats( fully ) of .doc in OpenOffice using Linux. Without being sued for supposively intellectual property miss use.

    OOXML, an open standard.... Don't make me laugh.

  36. Pienso que Micro$oft quiere obtener un Beneficio economico privativo de esto (quiza una patente), convertir blender en parte de su empresa mediante algun plug-in para el uso "optimo" de blender... Como dice Shadowman99, es una trampa!
    Este es un ejemplo de lo nefasto que es Micro$oft:

    I think that Micro$oft want to obtain a benefit economic and privative of this (may be a patent), convert blender in part of their company by means of some plug-in to "optimum" use of blender under privative instances... how say Shadowman99, it's a Trap!
    This an example of what ill-fated microsoft are:

  37. If they want to make Blender run better on Windows, even only to get people to buy windows instead of any other OS, then why not?
    Linux/mac just have to be as good as windows supporting Blender.
    Although we don't need Office documents supported in Blender, wmv would be neat.
    And I agree about the OpenGL-thing...

  38. Blender has come a long way without MS help or interest, therefor theres is no need to work with them.

    But if blender people wants to work with MS, then they should feed them shit and keep them in the dark, like they have always done.

  39. It really just seems like part of a PR campaign directed at the open source community. This just happens to be the form letter as it has been modified for the Blender foundation.

    Microsoft needs to be more open for practical business reasons. Linux distros along with all the major open source titles keep improving, stealling away the market they so dominate.

    Younger generations on tighter budgets and who are more computer savvy while being inherently more open are both willing and capable of using open source alternatives. My mom and dad would never be able to learn all the things they need to make everything run they way they expect from Microsoft on a Linux machine running open source. Microsoft needs us more than we need them.

    If they begin to close out in some way, the ability to run open source in Windows, we would be very willing to switch to Linux or even Mac. And with wine in Linux, you don't even need to stop using all of the Windows based programs you have. ReactOS is coming along as well. There is always an alternative. And I don't think there is any thing we need to fear from Microsoft.

    Greed is good, especially when you use it against them.

  40. I have to say I am surprised at the level of viciousness towards Microsoft in this thread.

    There are certainly things in Microsoft apps that annoy me but I also respect them for building some of the most awesome stuff out there like DirectX, HD Photo, VC-1 and the .NET framework. I expect Windows is the platform of choice for most Blender uses and will be for a long while yet. People should not forget that. Additionally motivation for people to use Blender over Max/Maya is probably not the same as that that motivates people to install Linux. I worry that with this hostile outlook Blender will ultimately fall to the lowest common denominator and not leverage the strengths of each platform it runs.

    As far as the article it’s self and help with Microsoft file formats.

    !!! HD Photo !!!
    • Arbitrary number of colour channels
    • Lossy and lossless
    • 8/16/32bit fixed and floating point colour
    • Additional image meta data

  41. 2 innactpro: "And I don't think there is any thing we need to fear from Microsoft." either you are very naive or very clever....
    Almigthy Microsoft propaganda..... only for half-brains.....
    I will do everything what I can to stop this!!!! Begin with petition.... Yesterday I will post it on and I gonna send it directly to Ton Roosendaal....

  42. "With respect to Blender, what can you tell me about your community/user
    feedback that you have heard regarding file formats?"

    I can: "Go away, Microsoft, and leave us be! No one likes a domineering Hitler corporation who's only agenda is to milk as much money from other people as possible."

  43. I use Windows and I'm very ok with it.
    So if there's a way for Blender to work even better on it, I'd go for it.
    For instance if we could have an enhanced directX exporter or a .wmv support, I'd be just glad.

    On the other hand, some here are over-reacting IMO.
    Just ask yourself two questions :
    1 - can Blender and its way of being developped and published be taken over by Microsoft ?
    2 - Can Microsoft force you to use Windows instead of Linux/Mac ?
    So I think you can chill out a little bit now...

    (On a side note, [quote Pavel Siska]"I am not a paranoid and my friends would tell you that I am very intelligent…".[/quote] If your friends are morons or 5-years old, it doesn't mean much to say something like this, and sorry but except seeing you flooding this thread with paranoïd anti-Microsoft-evil posts, I yet have to read something from you that would make me think you are indeed very clever.)

    I think the global goal of Blender is to be as good as possible, no matter who participates and what OS it's for.

  44. Am I the ONLY one that saw that as MS wanting to know what "OTHER" formats Blender was having a "less than optimal" experience with? Rather than the "HI, we are M$, what can we take from you today?" ??

    If Blender were to stop supporting Windows (And I don't see this happening), a LARGE portion of its user base would simply dry up! And talk about FUD; I see alot of it here.

    One of the reasons that blender is so popular is because 3D Studio MAX is obscenely expensive, and nothing else comes close to its capabilities for the price. However, I don't see anyone waving pitchforks and torches at Autodesk and their "PROPRIETARY" MAX format! How come no other application can import MAX files (.3DS doesn't count!)???

    Don't get me wrong. I love Blender and I love the price. 99% of the work done to improve Blender is done for the simple thrill of doing so. But I also notice the "donations" page is still present.

    MS (just like many other companies) just wants to make money selling stuff that people want to buy.

    /rant: sorry, I got wound up after hearing NPR report on the Bill Gates Charitable foundation, which is using 39 BILLION dollars to make the world a more oval place in which to live, yet NPR was accusing them of "doing it wrong".

  45. I don`t like this its kinda evil what Microsoft say.
    it does not feel good to me.

    and blender people is not stupid they are smarter than microsoft.
    and i think that blender people does not thrust them to.
    if you know what i mean.

    i have a question to bart.
    do you thrust/believe this what microsoft say?

  46. Fábio Capela on

    We should ask them for a GPL-compatible (both GPL2 and GPL3) patent pledge for all their file formats. I.E., a patent pledge that is automatic, royalty free, irrevocable and spread ad infinitum with redistribution of the code.

    Then we could craft a comments only header file and distribute it under "GPL2 or later", so it can spread this patent pledge in a viral way to every other GPL'd software that needs to use MS formats :)

  47. Pavel Siska on

    to Baboule: It is not too hard to see the end of the chain!!! Please keep you personal ratings of my intelligence in your own head. And mainly don't talk about my friend this way..... what you have proved is decreasing of IQ by summertime :)

    You quote me so it would be unpolite:
    Your Quote:
    "I think the global goal of Blender is to be as good as possible" - yet I agree ;)
    "no matter who participates" - are you kidding? You mean blood money are okay( sorry for that kind of exaggaration and I don't blaim everyone from MS to kill someone :), or stolen money, or simply money from
    Microsoft who is only carrying about increasing his money and building mega-monopol meanwhile someone on this world hasn't money to food????????!!!!!!!!!!
    "and what OS it's for." - that's enough maaaaan, you must be some kind of a miscrosoft joker. How you can say something like this, no matter what platform? :))))

    Your first sentence "I use Windows and I'm very ok with it." - I have heard about that kind of mental disease
    :(((( peace

  48. These are totaly awful words which is Microsoft saying, they just talk so easy, friendly and polite. But in Reality they aren't, they want more users on their Windows. I would say no to Windows. Why do they support so xtremely the file formats on other os like mac, linux?
    And the don't have to talk that they make wounderful opensource software, they do nothing.

    Pls say no!

  49. It was very "nice" of you to make that friendly (or even if it wasn't so friendly) e-mail from Microsoft in the centre of attention and write some creative works over it.
    Now they know how Blender community responds on their partnership offers: quoting each sentence and commenting it in public in impolite way. Nice catch, author.
    I wonder how would Sun Microsystems or Canonical Ltd. respond on that kind of message. I doubt, it would be the same way Blender Community have took.
    Now, be nice guys and apologize or at least don't do this again for sake of undercover politeness and fake friendship.
    This's not the _NEUTRAL_ position which author was talking about. Looks like agressive.

  50. Surely we need continued or improved openGL support in Windows

    Does anyone know what percent of blenderers actually use windows?
    I have noticed it's installed by default on every one of the thousand or so windows computers at my Uni.

  51. Pavel Siska on

    Apologize? Why? Man, it has been a long time ago I apologized for my opinion

  52. NielsBlender on

    They specific call it 'their battle', something very unusual in the opensource-community, and 'they' want to fit in?
    If you do the math with the text, their main goal is $, also something that is very unusual considering most friendly-opensource-communities not to mention the sometimes total free-opensource-communities.

    That make the total conclusion: OpenSource is a way of life, a way of life Microsoft can't pay for and they can't buy it in shares.

  53. @Agent A.L : are you saying that we shouldn't post this because people might react negatively? I don't think that's how we like to work.

  54. I'm with Agent A.L

    Some of you are acting like Microsoft is the next Nazi revolution. Calm down.
    We love open source as much as you do, but if Microsoft want to come to an agreement to make it work better in their operating system?

    Surely we can give a nod in their direction?

  55. NielsBlender on

    It's only recently Microsoft went to court, since some mother programmed a msnlock for her children, she made it commercially available for other parents to control/cut the 'addictive-behaviour' of 'modern-children'.

    They(ms) won, and she can't use the name 'msnlock', which is the correct name for parents that are in need and searching for something like it. I guess Microsoft only supports the children-addiction-point-of-view... Microsoft community-feelings? Don't make me laugh ;)

  56. Pavel Siska on

    I am sick of a stupid Microsoft propaganda all over the world!!!
    That's why is Blender so special, its multiplatform universality, no OS is discriminated, no OS is's free, it's open....
    and here comes MICROSOFT....oh maan, that's like very bad joke!!!

  57. ...and can we drop this whole, MICROSOFT IS EVIL HURRR

    How much money have YOU donated to charity??
    As Dave S said, try and beat 39 Billion.

  58. Guardian 452 on

    I currently use Windows, though I've been thinking about putting together a Linux machine exclusively for my Blender use.

    You know, in one way this is good news. Why? Well, think about it. Microsoft contacts the Blender Foundation about this (and I agree, it's all about making money). As far as I'm concerned, that's a testament to just how good Blender actually is! After all, they don't go after everyone...generally they deal with the serious threats!

  59. Toon Scheur on

    My first impulse would be to tell Microsoft to go suck an egg. But let the passion cool down and lets see how we can play this to our advantage.

    It is very hypocritical of you all to munch down on Microsoft like that. I am a microsoft hater too, but those are emotions, and we are dealing with a practical world here. Blender is Open Source... so there is nothing standing in the way of anyone or any company to get the source code, change it and make it play like XSI or Maya, and bundle it as a free and open source package with there OS as a come on.

    The Blender institute has worked with other commercial companies before if I'm not mistaken (Sun for example). So why should Microsoft be any different. Microsoft can't dictate the direction Blender is taken, but maybe they are interested in a way to use a high end technology that is free to use for there own purposes. Blender being open source, they HAVE to publish the source if they decide later on to tinker in it.... unless they are working on plug-ins could stay their own property.

    I'm just saying, play it out. Blender is heavily protected under GPL. It could turn out to be mutually beneficial. Unless someone from the angry mob above could come with some really strong arguments for the contrary?

  60. @Pavel Siska
    I have to apologize for I have been a little bit too personal too quick on this. Sorry about that.

    For the rest of your post, about I'm stupid because I don't use the same OS as you and being fine with it, about Microsoft making money while people are dying of starvation in the world, about blood money, stolen money, and the so, and about me being a "microsoft joker" because I don't have the same vision as you do, and all that glorious post of yours, I have to say that I don't feel up to your level of intelligence and I prefer not to try to get into an argument with someone as brilliant as you.
    I give up and won't annoy you anymore.

    Bye and happy blendering !

  61. This email came from Microsoft just weeks after their purchase of Caligari, the makers of the commercial Blender competitor, trueSpace.

    Gates & Co. are definitely up to something.

  62. Toon Scheur on

    Besides, it should be good publicity too for Blender. It will give Blender more exposure. It could smite the myth that Blender is 'toy' programmed by amateurs in the mind of critics if it can be related with the most successful software company in the world. The publicity could further help attract more users/ developers/ studios.

    If Microsoft is so evil (and I agree it is), then why doesn't the Blender institute drop the MS support?

  63. @Apologize? Why? Man, it has been a long time ago I apologized for my opinion

    Oh, I'm sorry. I should have noticed.

  64. @Bart : are you saying that we shouldn't post this because people might react negatively? I don't think that's how we like to work.

    I'm saying that we shouldn't post this because Microsoft and other communities might see that we react a bit childish on obviously provocative messages. This's not about "make piece, not war". This's about "stay calm and neutral to show behaviour of a powerful and self-concerned organization".
    Btw, "NO, THANKS" ftw. That would be the best reply addressed to Microsoft. We could make a vote for a possible answer to show them that Community decides, not only one person. That would make a problem for them to react and plan something EVIL (just in case) any further, as they'll know that they're dealing with whole community, not with limited board of directors.

  65. Pavel Siska on

    @We could make a vote for a possible answer to show them that Community decides, not only one person. That would make a problem for them to react and plan something EVIL (just in case) any further, as they'll know that they're dealing with whole community, not with limited board of directors.

    This is possibly the best suggestion....I agree with this.

  66. BlenderLovingSquirrel on

    Quote by AgentA.L

    "It was very "nice" of you to make that friendly (or even if it wasn't so friendly) e-mail from Microsoft in the centre of attention and write some creative works over it.
    Now they know how Blender community responds on their partnership offers: quoting each sentence and commenting it in public in impolite way. Nice catch, author.
    I wonder how would Sun Microsystems or Canonical Ltd. respond on that kind of message. I doubt, it would be the same way Blender Community have took.
    Now, be nice guys and apologize or at least don't do this again for sake of undercover politeness and fake friendship.
    This's not the _NEUTRAL_ position which author was talking about. Looks like agressive."

    Lol, no! What planet are you from? It would be an insult to everyone's intelligence including microsoft it we tried to "fake niceness" about something that they should already understand that an intelligent opensource community would think is a load of garbage.

    Anyway, there is no advantage for anyone other than Microsoft if blender was to comply with this "partnership" Who the hell NEEDS Microsoft products anyway?!

    Microsoft can smell the danger of obselecne on the horizon. they are the ones who are in the desperate position trying to continue their stranglehold on the world of computing in the future. But playing dirty tricks with Open source should not be their strategy. How about taking some of those Billions your trying to use to buy Yahoo, and instead make some products that people actually want to use.

    Microsoft is not synomous with computers.

    You can use computers and have not a piece of MS software on it and be just as fine as wine in the summer.

  67. Sure, "anything that makes Blender work better in Windows" sounds like a great deal.

    And it could be, as long as the improvements are not at the expense of the other platforms. Multiple OS functionality has been a HUGE selling point in getting to use open source tools here at work.

  68. NielsBlender on

    Pavel, I do use XP and recently also Vista.
    Microsoft is the first 'ready-to-go OS' and works on most if not all computers(X86) without any knowledge, it took them along time and with the 'help' of many, many brands.

    I also have experience with Mac-OS's and Linux-Kernel&WindowManagers:
    With Mac I say, the OS or the hardware/software it needs is too expensive for what you actually get(and the updating is even worse although that is slightly different since they crossed to Intel), however on a ranking-list I would list the Mac-OS higher than any Microsoft-OS they made so far, this especially concerning common-user-logic-intuitive-handling.
    Linux, well, I noticed at the time the win-gui is faster, even when I used e.g. blackbox, but my main problem was the lack of good drivers for hardware, there was no reason for me to stay on Linux at the time making music with win32-wrapped-drivers-for-linux..., besides the driver-problem I encountered, in a user-situation I want to ride a car, not first having to 'fix-it-up', the 'oneness' microsoft has, lacked with Linux. Nowadays certainly with Vista, they difference is much smaller, and there's alot of hardware luckily with reasonable/good drivers...

    So, call me 'mental ill' all you want :) I am used to that, people who believe in GOD(JHWH) and also actually believe, understand, follow and live it are used to that sort of comments... ;)

  69. Good grief, folks! You sound like a bunch of raving lunatics with pitchforks and torches ready to burn something down! If this same attitude and profound ignorance exists at the Blender Foundation then Blender will, and should, ultimately fail because this is just too deep into the territory of stupidity. It demonstrates a complete and total lack of any semblance of an idea of how to do ANY type of business, open source or not. Once again on display is the fact that the OPEN community is one of the most CLOSED communities in existence. And, the same raving lunes will, in the same breath, declare that they want others to come and join open source! Are you nuts?! These posts make open source seem more like a fringe religion than anything else! It's just damn embarassing...grow up.

  70. Quote: It would be an insult to everyone's intelligence including microsoft it we tried to "fake niceness"...

    In my humble opinion, answering with template would be better both for us and Microsoft, much better than making that direct insult with artwork which link is provided above. That original manner does not show whole community from the best side.

    Quote: Who the hell NEEDS Microsoft products anyway?!

    ME. I need Microsoft Operational system because it's still number 1 widely distributed and used in the World. When Linux platform will become similarly user friendly (drivers, software, device and user support) undoubtly I'll switch. But at the moment Linux for me is just a fancy flashy thing to play with, _NOT_ work with.

    Quote: and instead make some products that people actually want to use.

    Microsoft does already have some products that people actually want to use. Tatoeba: Microsoft Office. And don't tell me anything about O.O. Well yes, actually I prefer O.O than aforementioned piece. I think this's a good and useable alternative to MS Office but nevertheless MS Office is _STILL_ usable and in some aspects better.

    Quote: Microsoft is not synomous with computers.
    In that case, same goes to Unix, Blender and other software species. Then, the only correct and close synonym would be IBM, isn't it?

  71. BlenderLovingSquirrel on

    @ Kernon

    and you sound just like the rest of us

    which is to say you sound human, how do you think their stock holders talk about things, or people at political rallies

    this is HUMAN voices being human, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, that we're not saints or something?

    Okay, I can agree with that

  72. @BlenderLovingSquirrel
    No, I don't sound like most of the other posts, you're choosing to HEAR it that way. By your own admission: "I'm not sure what you're trying to say".

    This isn't an invitation to go back and forth over this. We'll just kindly agree to disagree, that's all. Thank you.

  73. "Go away, Microsoft, and leave us be! No one likes a domineering Hitler corporation who's only agenda is to milk as much money from other people as possible."

    Funny, I could say the same thing about Apple. ;)

  74. NielsBlender on

    Kernon, if we would have the same definition of 'join opensource' I would probably have agreed in some parts.

  75. Wow this article hardly had any comments this morning, now its gone crazy, everyones gone nuts at the mere thought of MS coming near Blender.

    I do trust MS to a certain degree, but i did also get a bad feeling reading the article. It could easily be completely harmless, these things can be blown out of context easily enough...

    Id like to see a second article, if there ever is one, on why MS is offering this/the possible positives (since we've already read the negative side of the story) that way we can make better judgment.

    If this is bad then i have to agree with Shadowman99 -
    Our developers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!


  76. NielsBlender on

    RNS: 'Could very well be the trueth', I can only hope for people they see on time, OpenSource can't be 'on-top' of Microsofts-battle's, making OpenSource Mircosoft based...instead of the, indeed 'higher-goal' of OpenSource :)

  77. @RNS
    I agree completely. To totally dismiss this, in the typical opensource knee-jerk fashion, would be a mistake. I think Blender could benefit tremendously from this IF things are handled intelligently and with some degree of business acumen. The plain and simple (provable) fact is that the majority of Blender users are using Windows. Any webmaster can view their traffic stats and clearly see this. To dismiss the Windows platform would be suicidal. If Blender is to truly compete and present itself as a viable alternative to artists and technicians of other 3d software, it must cater to their needs. If it doesn't, then those users will direct their attention to the solutions that do. It's that simple.

    Another thing to note is that no one really even knows what this news information really means! LOL

    But notice the knee-jerk reaction.

  78. SiriusCreative on

    bluelife said it best!
    MS is killing openGL in favor of DX. Open my rump. I would not rust MS as far as I could throw them.

    I can thank MS, however, for pushing me toward Blender, Gimp, Inkscape and OpenOffice though.

    So...thanks MS for opening my eyes!

  79. I don't know too much about this, I don't like the microsoft philosophy myself, trying to have total market dominion and all by under handed dirty means, but it seems that some open source projects are already using MS's help

    shows a few examples

    Like I said, I don't know too much about this, but it maybe worth a look at least what they have to offer. After all, I was worried about the google SOC projects when they started, thinking that google had some alternative motive for providing money for such projects, you know, "I paid for this, so I own you" sort of tactic... Glad I was wrong.

    Better to be wise and listen to what they have to offer, before taking such an aggressive stand.

  80. When I first read this I thought "what does Microsoft want with Blender?". After reading some comments and thinking further about it I think I get it.
    They are concerned about OpenGL adoption and DirectX decline.
    Games and design applications are probably the most important barriers for a wider linux desktop adoption.
    Design applications (including Adobe's) are turning to OpenGL, and that puts them closer to the multi-platform. Autodesk has moved to linux its professional line of products and DirectX is fading out in the design world.
    Games creators are starting to wonder if they should choose OpenGL and make things easier for multiplatform. Actually, games creators frequently complain about latest DirectX versions and their difficulties.
    So Microsoft has a weak front now, and Blender and Crystalspace are creating an open source game and that will prove Microsoft isn't the ONLY game creation platform. I know, maybe Apricot isn't a big numbers game, but it is just another pain in the MS$ butt (and they have lots lately).

    So, people who say that need Windows:
    - What about games running natively on Linux?
    - What about CAD and commercial 3D applications on Linux?

    Well, that's what keeps Microsoft concerned and that's why (imo) they contacted BF.
    They surely want Blender to support DirectX and make it a useful part of their suggested game creation workflow

    If Microsoft can't change the current situation, soon Adobe guys will port their Creative Suite to Linux (they've just released Flash specifications and that seems to be a starting point) and Microsoft will have serious problems.

    Just imagine this: commercial games and design applications running natively on linux.
    I prefer free software, but people tends to trust in a platform when it can run commercial and proprietary software, and it's more likely to happen than people realizing free software benefits

  81. Good grief people. Microsoft isn't going to somehow lure us all into a room, make us drink drugged Kool-Aid, and steal Blender. I agree that it's just a PR move of some kind, to appear "kinder and gentler" to the opensource community. Obviously, that's not going to happen, so big stupid on their part, but come on: it seems like some of you are probably wearing your tin-foil hats to keep out the alien radio waves while holed up in your bunkers waiting for the black helicopters to come get you.

    I love Windows, hate Linux. Why? I don't know. I just do. I don't need to have a better reason than that ... that's what freedom is all about, right? I say, if you want to run Linux, God bless and please enjoy. I don't run it, but why on God's green earth would I be angry or think you're an idiot for running software I don't like? That would be elitist, arrogant, and condescending, right? I use the software that I like to use, that *I* find most helpful to *me*, and that lets *me* do the things I want to do the way *I* want to do them. That's the same reason I use Blender and Inkscape -- because for me, they're superior to other alternatives. Having Windows versions of opensource software is *NOT* "feeding the monster" -- it's feeding people like you and me. Snobbery is snobbery, and I'll flip the bird to anyone who's directing it my way, whether it's Microsoft trying to tell me I'm stupid for not "upgrading" to Vista, or it's someone on here telling me I'm an idiot for not sleeping with their favorite Linux distro next to me in bed. If Blender development for Windows ceases, I'll keep using the last version that works with Windows, or find another alternative that meets my needs. What I won't do is move to Linux.

  82. BlenderLovingSquirrel on

    @ Kernon

    you're right about that, I totally disagree with you... moving on

    Why must we PLAY BALL with Microsoft anyway?

    The fact of the matter is that consoles will dominate the 3d gaming market from here on out. DirectX is useless. Nobody needs it. Crytek will no longer make PC specific titles (sign of the times). And you can use a keyboard and mouse for consoles AND use the internet, AND they are cheaper. Console games out sell PC games like 8-1

    Without the DirectX advantage windows has no relevance in a world filled with Ubuntus and Blenders.

    The problem with Kernon's statement is that he doesn't seem to realize that Microsoft NEEDS open source in order to stay competitive. While open source does not need Microsoft. People's desire for free quality software will probably never decline. (just look at the rise of computer game pirating), Microsoft needs to get wtih the picture: Having a computer that can do many awesome things is almost becoming a human right in this day and age.

    The computer world only sufferes when you have one monolithic guardian making decisions for everyone. And barring people from using certain formats and APIs.

    Having relations with Microsoft is not a measuer of legitmacy in the computer world.

    I'm not angry about Microsoft I'm just asking, "Why?"

  83. I just came on the scene here...

    It seems that Windows is trying to establish a strong bond with the Blender community, so as to get some influence on the Blender Foundation and the program itself to aid in knocking Linux out of the picture.

    Can you imagine "New, Windows-Only Blender Build w/new Features"?

    I can easily see it happening, and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't like it.

    Now, I can also see that Windows and Blender making a bond would help Blender in many ways, but it would also harm it.

    I would politely turn this down.

  84. Never trust Microsoft. They want Blender features that are exclusive to Windows.

  85. The email was meaningless and automated. It's part of their campaign to get developers interested in their 'open source'-so-long-as-it-runs-only-on-windows licenses. Obviously the devs aren't going to fall for it, therefore don't loose any sleep.

    That said, I grow more interested in Linux by the day. I will not buy Vista. I will not buy a Mac. If Windows 7 isn't up to par, then I WILL use Linux instead. And so will a whole bunch of other people.

  86. Michael Green on

    Oh, that's great!

    Are you all satisfied? Intrr wakeup! Now we are f**ked

  87. @Irowebot: Why not try out Mac?
    @robert: Getting rid of the Windows port would be a crippling stroke to Blender, as there are so many users that use Windows, in the business world and for personal entertainment. Is giving support (for MS) causing bloated code or excessive work-arounds to get it to work properly on that OS?

    I don't think I'll read all the 100+ comments to this post... :D ciao.

  88. NielsBlender on

    Kernon, could you stop the 'non-opensource-knee-jerk'-reactions? And if you there, say something worth reading...? I mean, even on this thread someone shares the info, Blender is 'OS-free' and good openGL-support is vga-card-brand, what do you mean with: 'The plain and simple (provable) fact is that the majority of Blender users are using Windows. Any webmaster can view their traffic stats and clearly see this. To dismiss the Windows platform would be suicidal'... if you read and understand what is going on, the suicidal-part is not on the 'opensource(or Blender)'-side... You're message Kernon, to explicitly tell:' Make sure you are a Microsoft dependency' == really inappropriate!

  89. What a load of @$A%# by MicroCrap and WinBlows.

    It probably has to do with wanting to rip apart Blender to impart its technologies into future versions of MS products or things in development. The folks at Microsoft are NEVER up to any good, they are always working some angle behind the scenes so they can publically gain praise and attention from others hard work as if it was their own development and say they invented it.

    I say someone needs to dress up in a Big Buck Bunny suit and go to Redmond and see what they really want! ;-)

  90. @Agent A.L
    That fact of the matter is Microsoft isn't being open with us developers and is trying to get us to be open with them. We already are open with windows as much as any other OS. They just aren't being open with any file format they make. The fact that Microsoft thing our formats need work only show their ignorance. What needs work is THEIR formats in LINUX not windows. When an organization makes it their goal to destroy your favored operating system by "Outsmarting Linux" they shouldn't expect a warm response.

  91. onepostusername on

    MS does some small, but still recognizeable research into high dynamic range formats, (like hdr video)
    so there might be some interesting flesh on that side. (Not to mention the photosynth concept.)

    Honestly: things really start to get quite similar to the gimp mailing lists here :(

  92. yes we may have been behaving like a bunch of angry hooligans. In the end, we're human like everyone else.


    "the cake is a lie", is the best reply in this entire thread. I'm still laughing.

  93. they got it : they made the community dispute and dissipate just with one email ... wow ... M$ IS powerfull ...

    by the way, to Kernon and other "higher than the other" on the ego ladder : grow yourselves, and please respect at least the possibility that other people can think differently, and maybe have arguments against such greedy and poisonous industry.
    Free and Open Source Software HAVE something to do with economics, social matters and ethics, and in this, M$ is not really well rated. (even if they CLAIM to give bucks to "charity", which is still to be demonstrated, and being cleared to WHICH charity they gives .... since ages "charity" is just another form of control and propaganda from the rich and powerful to calm down the poor's anger ... just please read some history books)

    If you cannot see that "pure neutrality" is also "passive collaboration" in a context of socio-economic battle (which the case as remembered by M$ in their mail - in fact they engage it) than you surely are just "unconscious active collaborator" (or worst). Sure some kind of tactics are needed, but it's not by being obsequious we'll got respect and independence.

    For a long time M$ windows was the "only" popular OS (just don't ask how ... ), but now it has been surpassed by the FOSS GNU/linux (or MAC/BSD) in functionality, power, and development possibilities, they deserve to loose and let people choose what's best for them or at least they need to change their own policy (which they are just disguising now).

    But economics are not democracy, so we are still here, arguing and pestling in the monopoly game .... pfffff

    hopefully, some growing part of the world is waking up...


  94. ...hmmmm....time to make registary hack neh?
    anything m$ puts in you can erase ^^ *the crystal methodolgy*
    i love bill gates they have a run of bad products and consumers...but under it all M$ is okay...when combined with linux! lol
    but honestly...more power to m$ as long as they make it optional or atleast reversable
    if they work along with bf i wanna see blender thumbnails *droooooolz*

  95. Ankit Pruthi on

    i wanna see blender thumbnails would be really cool

    and i would should agree with Microsoft and in case things start to go wrong, bf can simply back up and continue the way it is doing now.... could be good chance for blender to gain more users......

    and i also agree with one more idea.....lets just conduct a poll and see what the majority of the community thinks and agrees upon.....

  96. Would it really hurt so much to just say a polite no, and move on.
    I mean like some other poeple have stated some of u look like you're almost ready to pick up your pitchforks and torches and start with the burning down of MS offices, and altho that might solve some problems imho I think we would be better off with a polite no, this would both look better for us a friendly accepting community and might be more usefull in the future.

    Tbh I really have no idea about the strategy off MS but aslong as opensource products will supply products that can compete with closed software from companies as MS I dont see why we should fear them.
    And aslong as there will be communities that support opensource products there will be improvements in those products.

    All I'm saying is that turning down help rudely will might come back and slap us in the face later, and I don't really see the point of not just saying a polite no and grabbing our pitchforks.

    Anyway that's just my opinion

  97. I think a lot of what people are saying about this is dumb. Microsoft isn't some evil corporation or something. Microsoft seem as if they really are trying to get into the whole open source thing; yet if windows was to go completely open source it would end up like linux with tons of different versions and no good solid ones for
    people who are casual computer users. Yall are too cynical, all that article is is bias media about MS.

  98. *hello....
    *microsoft is money before technology this is how its history started....from ms dos to vista it still goes on...;in my opinion the expanding blender community and blender devellopment itself captured ms attention not necessarily for good:they would not buy it but they may start with making it less and less accessible...using their operating system as an obstacle and it won't take long before we realize that we are not dealing with blender as a cross-platform soft but with a ms thing
    *my opinion is this :don't be scared of ms...linux and mac os are here to prove that cg are not ms invention

  99. I'm sure that there's a little bit of over reaction to this 'initial' enquiry. However I've been following the PHP certification process for MS servers os's of late and it's all about getting people to use open source on MS environments without initially jumping into a Unix environment where a lot of Open source lives and works amazingly well.

    Quite what windows blender users are losing out on as opposed to Unix blender users is probably what they're trying to resolve. I use both and I can't immediately imagine anything file system wise that there's a major hindrance.

    If this is a MS foot in the door or just a rather un-thought through line of enquiry, I wouldn't leap for the nearest pitch fork just yet ;)

    There is also the cloud over Houdini 9 being 100% solid on Unix and far from 100% on win32 environments which I've been dealing with. Ask about Win32 problems on SideFX forums and you'll be told, no-one uses win32 to a great degree for houdini.

  100. *another opinion: don't be scared of ms because it doesn't construct computers...while there are free platforms just like free softwares...;just don't sell your freedom away

  101. Ladies and Gentlemen,

    Please, let's remain focused and let's be pragmatic. If there is a good answer to a good question, let's give it. Ton passes on the question for a reason.

    If nothing would help with respect to file format(s), explain why in technical terms. Conversely, if something could be improved (move to JSON as opposed to move to XML for example), explain what it is, in terms of performance or file size (etc), improved API or what have you.

    Give MS the benefit of the doubt. They asked a question, to hear an answer. If it's actionable, maybe they can / will do something about it. You know what will happen if we don't talk to them. Nothing, for this or anything else.

    If Ton determines that MS *IS* serious (through meaningful dialog) he can work with them. At some point, he will be able to ask OUR questions. You see, if you don't engage people when they engage you, don't expect positive response. So, in turn, that could be a break for OpenGL. Again, certain failure to improve is the only guaranteed outcome if we don't answer.

    We could say, no, nothing with regard to file format, but can MS do something about X Y and Z??

    So we see ourselves as threatened. How do you think that big standards (e.g. DDR) are ever set? Intel sits with much smaller companies (and actual competitors). Competitors find mutually beneficial grounds. And they work out the differences. Everybody benefits. Sure it's hard, but it's actually productive. How would you find out if you dismiss them now? Can't even understand this? And unless we suffer from a Napoleonic complex, the BF isn't exactly in direct competition with MS.

    Give Ton some food for thoughts please.

    As long as it's truly productive and good for the community, why would you refuse help or cooperation?

    Sure, it may change us, but, believe it or not, it may change them even more. So let's sit at the table, behave like intelligent grown ups. We will find in no time how serious they are. IF we don't like it, so what? A few hours lost and we walk, IF we like it, all the better.

    So, can ANYBODY, actually answer the file questions?

    Thanks for your extended attention and / or a pertinent answer.


    PS: I don't care about JSON. I just throw it since it can compete in many ways w/ XML...

    PPS: I don't care about platforms because I have or have had them all - well, nearly :)

  102. After reading all this there's a few features we'd appreciate Microsoft's support with:

    Making a third filetype for mesh/animation/textures for XNA where one could just use .blend files
    Supporting the upcoming blender game-engine plug-in so it's easy and straight forward to run an external, openGL, xna or Directx (I'd love OpenGl, but I'm a realist) based game engine from blender and be able to use blender as a map editor and the like... failing that: just rebuild CS for XBLA.
    Improve OpenGl support for Vista.
    Try to change the xna framework for an openGL framework (I can dream, right?)

    Make a special tool that makes it possible for opensource sourcefiles to be compiled reliably and optimised for individual users . instead of a binary or a sourcefile, one would download the sources and a compiler wrapper in one go. It would compile on install using the current hardware optimization available. Much like gentoo's emerge, but for windows.

    And if they've got some room, offer me a job for co-CEO, I promise not to throw any chairs around.

  103. NielsBlender on

    That Microsoft has turned their policy to support application-os-independancy instead of 'declare war and battle' is still new to me... Remarks of some comparing Microsoft to a 'Hitler-firm' is nasty-play, but to say Microsoft can't be an evil company is really naive... It was only recently in the papers:"Microsoft said:'Hostile take-over against whatever'", you probably also think Microsoft took Apple-shares at the time, because they just wanted to support them...or they just like the colour blue ;)

    The OpenSource-shareholders, do have a different goal in mind... :)

    I believe the ms-email referred to PHP, I really start laughing when I think back at the still going on battle with MS - Sun Java, and as time passed by C# etc...
    The fact that they give away MS Visual Express is self-protection not being kind... ;)

  104. Pavel Siska on

    "A good user experience of Blender on Windows is good for your project/community and good for Microsoft."
    I feel chilling on my back when I read this...
    "Blender on Windows" ...isn't Windows only just one of the other seven platforms supported by Blender?....
    Why we need to cut community in half...ones with "better expirience".
    There a plenty of fights and disputes between users of Windows and users of other OS across the internet, but our Blender community never was like that. We were blending together remember? We all wanted to create something, and did't really care if the user which I am talking to is using Windows or Linux...
    With first step microsoft does in our community we are now fighting with each other!!! Writing this "120 responses" discussion!
    Like change in balance...

  105. Pavel Siska on

    "A good user experience of Blender on Windows is good for your project/community and good for Microsoft."
    I feel chilling on my back when I read this...
    "Blender on Windows" ...isn't Windows only just one of the other seven platforms supported by Blender?....
    Why we need to cut community in half...ones with "better expirience".
    There a plenty of fights and disputes between users of Windows and users of other OS across the internet, but our Blender community never was like that. We were blending together remember? We all wanted to create something, and did't really care if the user which I am talking to is using Windows or Linux...
    With first step microsoft does in our community we are now fighting with each other!!! Writing this "120 responses" discussion!
    Like change in balance it is...

  106. If Microsoft is serious about being open source they need to develop a system like Google's summer of code. Now, to answer some questions.

    "With respect to Blender, what can you tell me about your community/user feedback that you have heard regarding file formats?" Anybody had problems with file formats? If your like me you use the .blend extension. Only possible trouble could be the importers/exporters. (What with all the triangle mess)

    "What we are trying to understand is what file formats, which are not open or not fully open, are impeding the optimal experience with your community." .3ds doesn't always import right. Isn't really much trouble though, I just use .blend. The only thing that really needs changing is the importers. They just need to be more accurate to the original model. Meaning the importers should be able to import quads as well as bones, textures, poses, materials, and animations. That way it would be almost the same as saving in the .blend format. (As .gif is to .jpeg)

    "Please also include in that list any Microsoft files that you might have trouble with."
    Hmm...what file types that we use are owned by Microsoft? Maybe the in-coders for the renderer? (When saving as a .WMV file?)

    Anyway that's my answer. Also, I request any changes made to blender must not be unique to Windows. I use both Windows and Linux I see the value of both.

    The evil moose

  107. BlenderLovingSquirrel on

    "2x rendering speed for Windows Users Only~! Thanks to our partners at the Blender Foundation!"

    "Only with DirectX 10.1 !!!"

    Like the sound of that? guys if they do anything like that, then that means the Microsoft Owns us becasue then they can use open source existence as a corporate leveraging device for their marketing sector. Giving Microsoft a chance is short sighted and naive and it just ignores history and analytical thought processes.

  108. BlenderLovingSquirrel on

    Maybe that's why I can't embed the Google search engine in my Mozilla Add-ons drop down like I could before?

    And microsoft is now taking credit for what Mozilla does? What benefits have they bestowed upon us so graciously? Name one. Name 3.

  109. Beats me :)

    This is wath they wrote in here :
    "When the Open Source Software Lab at Microsoft reached out to Mozilla last summer, the lab offered support in getting Firefox and Thunderbird running on Windows Vista. A year later, the relationship with Mozilla has resulted in a number of beneficial changes at both firms, including a new Windows Media Player Plugin for the open source browser."

  110. Someone on the Groklaw site said something similar to this:

    Ton should not accept the offer. Working with Microsoft would cause him to loose respect in the open source world. And it would be more difficult to find developers willing to improve upon Blender.

    Those aren't the exact words, and I can't find it now, but that was the jist of it and I'd agree if we were talking about an intimate partnership.

    I highly doubt Ton would change licenses or abandon cross platform capability. Once again, I am compelled to conclude that this is not a big deal. Let Microsoft give the developers free MSVC Pro licenses, it's not a big deal.

    The current Blender memory-dump format is perfect as it is. As a blender user, I have no problems with it. However, an XML-like export format feature might be interesting.

  111. @rogper - "including a new Windows Media Player Plugin for the open source browser". This is what is all about. I don't care about support for wmp. It's not an open standard, like ooxml. So if somebody is willing for some file too be viewable for all he shouldn't choose any of ms formats.

  112. Microsoft and open source in the news:

    Just a few, but I mean come on, do they even understand open source?

    Like most things they are LATE to the OpenSource party and will play unfair to get ahead, until they can claim they created something, which generally they do not but rather take innovations from others and stake claim to credit.

    They probably want to have better 3D support in SilverLight to compete with Flash ;-)

  113. @Aka: And the point of this correspondence is Microsoft asking how they can make their formats more open. Unless I misread the email.

  114. Lucas Da Costa Dantas on

    What about Microsoft anyway ??
    Bill Gates and Microsoft Windows still the best thing on the computer industries .
    It build the thing the way you know it ,everyone like it (the world) and use they
    perfect products ....

    Then the people start to get knowledge about things ,starts then to create they own
    stuff,some make it Open Source others don't ,and a fight to be WINDOWS started .
    What happen really ?

    Knowledge as the power:
    A simple truth about people that try for hate its products ,
    its because they are afraid they own limitations .
    And there is where appears the "WHAT ?" that question they selves .

    For its starts get bad on they thougts ,and imaginate stuffs .
    then to lost they selves away they own focus .
    A competition are then started against Microsoft .

    Why that happen's are the question ?

  115. @Shadowman99, anomalous_underdog: oh man that is awesome!

    My personal take is we should accept any free copies of ms pro dev tools we can get, but that's about it.


  116. Lucas Da Costa Dantas on

    Its because Microsoft are everything ,
    in some case that you must for choose where and how and
    what to do with your knowledge .
    Microsoft are at the top and a limitation to its products about agaisnt your
    software ,you see yourself little to then loose for a
    competition war about all that technowledge .

    1) Be who you are for keep what you are doing .

    2) Try to beat the leader for the world technowledge conquer .
    Alone ,or by join another big company ??
    Anyway ,become what you hate and being hate .

    And that is where the free knowledge (as the power) consume youself .

  117. @Talion- More open? No way. It's only because more people started too use FF, thats all. And they know that they are loosing with FOSS. It's not about users who use oos but those who are turning in other direction than ms is looking. It's fear about loosing market tshares u are not a customer but an entity in ther statistics. Thats only my opinion, so u can simply not agry with my way of thinking. Mayby it's a little fanatic way of thinking, but i only see business in ms way of doing things.

  118. I recently read a book called "The complete guide to Digital 3D design" by Simon Danaher (ilex press). It had this description of blender " mainly used by large 3D facilities for network rendering or by renegade tech-heads with a hatred of all things Microsoft" (p.107). I thought the last part was a description of Blender that perhaps may hurt it from getting a larger user base on the Windows platform. This should not be how people should think of Blender. By reading the comments along here this description may be sadly true.

    Microsoft seem to start working hard to make their platform suitable for open source applications. We may expect to see more mail like this on other FOSS projects. Of course I see a hidden trap here; what Microsoft may benefit from this is better import functionality on it's own proprietary OS and thus making it a superior choice for Blender development.

    I think the best response to this is to emphasize that Blender is a multiplatform application and that file formats should be supported on all of these platforms. Some formats that it seem to be a need for are already mentioned like HD photo.

    Ton should also use the opportunity to establish some developer contact at Microsoft. It may be useful later to solve troubles on the Windows build of Blender, after all Blender has a large user base using Windows for Blender development.

    (digression: .. by reading the mail from Microsoft I see that their first priority are "user experiences" not functionality....)

  119. This seems to be a new development. I would think that Microsoft is reponding to commercial pressure from Open-Source users.

  120. I wish that you would all be a little less hostile towards Microsoft. If they're looking for ways to make Blender more usable on Windows, I would go for it. Ton seemed to trust them well enough anyway.

    Of course, I know nothing of formats either, or how they work with Blender. I'm just getting the general feeling that we're getting riled up over something that is meant to help make Blender a better supported application. If I'm wrong, please drop me an email ease_my_burden (-+at-+) yahoo dot com and explain it to me in layman's terms. I'm not exactly a programmer.

  121. Casey Williams on

    I guess it's still not commonly known that Microsoft just bought Caligari a few months ago and seem to now have big plans for TrueSpace. Maybe they want to add blender import/export to TrueSpace?

  122. blendercross on

    135 Comments ?!?!? - that i call a reaction!
    ..should i say something about MS, i don´t think so. ( Bart will agree with that )
    .... but.... if i hear ms, my Mouldercomplex return and i see everywhere mysterius people..... oh no - not again!

  123. Sigh... please don't put so much emotion into the discussion. All this kiddy-style "M$ suckz, linux rockz" doesn't help anyone. First we should ask ourselves "Is there ANY MS proprietary file format we need at all?"

    Some people mentioned Windows Media. I think this does not concern Blender directly. Why? Because there's FFMPEG. If the FFMPEG team chooses to support Windows Media, Blender will automatically benefit from it. But Blender doesn't need native support for that.

    Silverfast? Blender neither has a vector renderer nor flash support. Maybe one day. But up to that time this isn't a thing to _really_ think about.

    HD Photo? Is there ANY application on this planet supporting this? I thought it's kinda experimental? Anyway... sounds a bit like OpenEXR with additional metadata...

    DirectX stuff... ok, I'm not into it... If there are proprietary file formats which blender should support for import/export.... Well... why not give it a try... But be prepared that MS can (and probably WILL) change things in the future.

    Office document formats... Does Blender need those? I hardly see any use.. Maybe import a Word DOC into the texteditor... but this isn't something that will improve Blender significantly.

    So... Instead of flaming each other and Microsoft and anyone... Why not think about possible uses. And propose them. And don't forget: It's just about file format compatibility for file import/export... Microsoft won't code Blender to run solely on Windows/DirectX.

    One last word to all those guys telling the people to behave kindly to impress Microsoft: Blender is in public development. Things that concern Blender concern ALL people of its community. This writing has to be discussed in public. That some people have an offensive attitude towards Microsoft... Well... It's the bill MS has to pay for it's corporate ignorance they showed all these years.

    Forward ever, backward never (:

  124. A sign of good faith from MS would be :
    - To continue supporting OpenGL on Windows. The real genuine stuff, not a crappy Direct X emulate OpenGL stuff.

    OpenGL is used by many other softwares like 3DSMax & Maya anyway I believe. And computer scientists wouldn't take kindly to MS if they couldn't make programs with OpenGL in VC.

    Shoving Direct X to push OpenGL out of the frame would have negative consequences for MS only.

    Maya is mostly Windows/Linux and requires hardware-accelerated OpenGL graphics card...
    Stopping support for OpenGL or crappy emulation via DX would mean a shift to Linux Maya...

    However I really think a better DX support for Blender Game Engine would push some indie gamestudio to give a try at Blender... (with all the WiiWare business and XBox live online store, it shouldn't be ignored)

  125. Guess the MS dudes have an answer now concerning community/user feedback regarding file formats :-).
    I would just email them a link to this newspost.

  126. BlenderLovingSquirrel on

    everyone is childish and overemotional and irrational EXCEPT MEEE!!

    Everyone is wrong, I lulz at everypost made here today, EXCEPT MINE!!

  127. Ivan Paulos Tomé on




    I will point you all to the right situation. I am still using Windows 2000 or then XP in 2 of my 8 machines, the other 6 is using Ubuntu Linux. The point is that Windows Vista try_to_outpace_Open_GL as we saw, with the "switch" of OpenGL over directX, 50X slower than the original, and even after they solved part of the problem, Vista is a shame compared to Linux Distros.
    Blender uses OpenGL, and then ? Ridiculously Slower in Windows Vista !
    Even when we use manufacturer custom drivers or then vendor drivers like Nvidia or ATI, the user experience lacks velocity to model, composite and render in Windows Vista of any kind.
    What they really want, is to solve this situation, possibly saying to anyone that didn't want to upgrade because of the serious use of Blender, that their systems is OK, but I doubt that it will OK for OpenGL in the near future or then forever.
    I cannot forget the Idea of cripto-communications between CPU and GPU. This idiot Idea belongs to Microsoft, for a good example.
    All of the people that is using Blender as a serious tool, is trashing Vista, and starting to Use Ubuntu, Fedora Core, Debian, Gentoo, or switching to Suse Linux. Me too.

    What they want ?
    We all know.

    What we Want ?
    OpenGL faster than XP, when we use 8800GT or GTS cards, for sample.

    Who is giving that GREAT BLENDER experience ?
    Only LINUX !

  128. Uhh... which part of the Microsoft philosophy is this... is it the EMBRACE part, or is it EXTEND, or is it EXTINGUISH? I think it might be the EMBRACE bit...

  129. I have not read all the posts. But I'm with one of the earlier posts. Drop support for Microsoft.

  130. I say let Microsoft do whatever they like with the file format and let the European Antitrust do their part. Given how they used sneaky tactics to get OOXML standardised I really am curious to see what they'll do with .blend files .... perhaps they'll put a patent on it or two or three ...

  131. MS, just cut the crap and deliver OpenGL drivers v2.0 with your OS by default - it isn't that hard.

    After all, when you download them from IHV-s site directly (nVidia, ATI etc.), they do have GL by default, and are MS Certified (that means the companies paid your testing "labs" to give them ~100% MS working certificate)... So you are deliberately crippling Windows user experience!

    That alone is the proof of your "help" and "good intentions" to make windows user experience better. You want only money, by enforcing your own technologies, establishing monopoly and crippling everything else (good or bad, no difference). You don't care about end user... and what worries me the most, is that now Blender is in your focus.

    Please stay away, there are tons of examples about your "help" and "support" to 3rd party companies. Blender doesn't need your: Embrace, Extend, Extinguish tactics.

    In short,
    Go F*** yourself

    My 2c

  132. dingolovethrob on

    A brief consideration of the dirty tricks and ballot-stuffing that Microsoft happily engage in should tell us that they simply cannot be trusted.

    If they chose to engage an entity like the Blender Foundation in a protracted legal battle, they'd have the resources to fight it and the Blender Foundation would not. So Microsoft would win, and Blender would cease to be. -One less competitor for Microsoft's product portfolio.


  133. The problem is that for anybody who has been following the OOXML standardisation process.... The letter sent by microsoft is like having somebody piss on your face and tell you it's raining. There is a tremendous amount of bad blood for many of us surrounding this and if that is the example Microsoft are going to use of their glowing new openess then Microsoft can go f**k themeselves.

    If the blender dev's are going to accept Microsofts help on file formats they want to make sure that they know what the licensing conditions are and check with a good lawyer first.

  134. "The ISO standard Office Open XML is an
    example of the direction we are moving towards."

    I think this is meant as a threat - at least that's what it sounds like when you read between the lines:

    "First we corrupted the ISO standard and now we will try to poison open-source and make them loose resources by wasting time with trying to implement our useless, not working, proprietary 'standards'."

  135. Muahaha! For me it would be much more interesting if the existing commercial programs under Windows would run smoothly. For Open Source I allready have a nice -n 19 OS that only use time if there is some and pop up requester on click not on sleep 7. Yeah I know a batchfile could help to run apps "less than normal" but Max allready need a coffee break to run. And please if you allready on track to optimize Windows, do something with your network protocols the speed is unuseable!

  136. After reading all of this. I made a post to my blog (bit hastily it seems). Here are some thoughts from me.

    Now i think there are few major things that should be pushed forward. And few that should be avoided.

    First of all the OpenGL issue seems to be ... well in my oppinion the number one thing. User experience clearly shows that the DirectX emulation thingy doesnt work on Vista so fix it and this makes Blender usabiltiy a lot better. And make clear that Blender WILL NOT GO TO DX.

    Secondly, i dont see any file format that miss from Windows. Not a single really. Dont know if there are some files that would help the internal workings of Blender (as i am not DEV of any level). Quite many said the WMV...whatever, but really. Its not that good of a format and it has its issues with "legal availability".

    And then we come to few other things. XNA. I used to follow some lowlevel game industry stuff. And at one point i saw a video about presentation to XNA, and in the presentation the guy said it is aimed in great deal to "small / indie game studios". This instantly gave me the idea of MS trying to get... i mean Keep their strong grip on Windows status as Game platform for PC. I've heard many many times and actually i myself kinda miss the only thing from Windows is the games (which arent even made by MS), and to many the idea of not being able to play games or use their "software X" is the key reason to not switch to Linux. So amongst the common folk (atleast around here) they dont care THAT MUCH which system they are running. All they want is to play their GTA and beat some poor digital guy with bat on weekends and read some emails after that. Thats it. And the XNA movement seemed to me as very smart maneuver to try keep young (and possible the future game devs) on Windows as they wouldnt really know how to make games for *nix.

    So my message to Ton & Others.

    I think you should listen what MS has to say, but i would try to shove the Fileformats aside and concentrate on the OGL issue.

    Thanks thats all.

  137. Oh. One addition. I ment i made a post to my blog earlier today, when i had just read the original message. Not after reading all these.


  138. @Dave S.

    Bill Gates donates money to squeak into a lower tax bracket, not out of the goodness of his heart. I'm not saying that he necessarily wouldn't donate otherwise, but glorifying him for this is fairly ignorant.

  139. @Eradicor
    Actually OpenGL on Vista is the same as on XP . If you don't have drivers, you will get OpenGL 1.5 emulated trough DX. Which is more than you get on XP by default (GL drivers on XP are suportd by MS only up to version 1.1).

    BUT, as you download the drivers from nVidia, ATI, Intel, etc, you get the fully working OpenGL with zero speed penalty over native DX (almost zero in windowed mode, and zero in fullscreen mode - since Aero is turned off). There is no emulation.

    The issue here is that MS doesn't want to include FULL DRIVERS, as supplied by graphic card manufacturers, in their default "out of the box" installation. That is the source of problem. Yes, you can always download the full drivers from manufacturers site (and you should, because thy are more up to date, optimized etc.), but you don't get them by default "on the microsoft installation DVD".


    Because M$ is monopoly, doesn't care about user experience, and although the full drivers (one with GL, available on graphic card manufacturers site) were tested by MS, and have WHQL certificate - they are not included.

    So... it is a policy, not real system issue. They are trying to cripple the only competitor to DX, and establish the monopoly once more.

    And now they want to "improve" Blender "user experience" on Windows - It's a joke...

  140. @Quote: Microsoft, evil…yes.
    @Quote: Go away, Microsoft
    @Quote: Never trust Microsoft
    @Quote: The folks at Microsoft are NEVER up to any good
    @Quote: and blender people is not stupid they are smarter than microsoft
    @Quote: Microsoft making money while people are dying of starvation in the world, about blood money ...
    And, at last:
    @Quote: Bill Gates donates money to squeak into a lower tax bracket

    Let's ask the Mythbusters about that.
    Or maybe you're Gill Bates? Now this explains, why are you so sure about his personal business.
    All I see here lately - some try to tell as much as possible amusing facts about Bill and his attitude concerning everything around him and his company. What can you tell about Balmer then? He flies through the night to find lonely *nix users and suckz their blood? His deadly sting makes you Windows supporter forever? There's no Balmer in Balmer, only pure void of evilness?
    I wonder what kind of thoughts might appear in their (Microsoft evil bloodthirsty merciless undercover spies that came here to laugh at you) minds, reading this?

  141. Transcribed from the Iowa State anti-trust lawsuit against Microsoft. []

    From: Bill Gates
    Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 8:41 AM
    To: Jeff Weslorinon, Ben Fatbi
    Cc: Carl Stork (Exchange); Nathan Myhrvold; Eric Rudder
    Subject: ACPI extensions

    One thing I find myself wondering about is whether we shouldn't try and make the "ACPI" extensions somehow Window specific.

    It seem unfortunate if we do this work and get our partners to do the work and the result is that Linux works great without having to do the work.

    Maybe there is no way to avoid this problem but it does bother me.

    Maybe we could define the APIs so that they work well with NT and not the others even if they are open .

    Or maybe we could patent something related to this.


    That's MS's philosopy about "open" standards in 1999, and it's their philosphy in 2008.

  142. Eonmach Realm on

    a simple example of "just say no, thanks"

    Microsoft claimed that Linux owed them royalties...
    Do not ever make deals, with software patent companies, that´s their business, that´s how they made themselves so big.

    What they are after at, IMHO:

    1)Is to put a software patent on Blender code (thus Blender Foundation), and then sue them, and since they are experts at it, squash flat the effort of many.

    2)Or develop plug-ins, updates and other stuff, and make them work better in their operating systems.

    3)all of the above

  143. I must say I am quite shocked at the large number of people posting here who do not understand microsoft's long history of fucking people over. I'm guessing the access logs here will show a lot of IP's from Washington State. To call the Groklaw article biased is beyond belief. To say Bill Gates is a great guy because he gave 39 billion to charity is the most ignorant statement I have heard in weeks. I certainly hope the Blender people do not take the advice to listen to what microsoft is offering. It is quite certainly a trap. That's not paranoia, that's the truth. There is no reason to respond to their email with anything other than no. There is no need to burn down their offices (I never read anyone actually say that) and there is no need to tell them to fuck off (ok, there are plenty of reasons), just say "No thanks." To think that Steve Ballmer is actually trying to help Blender work on windows, what evidence is there? I have seen a huge amount of evidence that clearly demostrates microsoft is a monopoly that wants nothing to do with being "open." I hope the everyone knows about OOXML and what a huge amount of corruption went into getting ISO approval. To see them actually mention it as proof that they are now open is so laughable it makes me feel sorry for all the microsoft lackeys posting here. You people are either completely misinformed, totally ignorant, or bill is cutting you a little sliver of his pie.

  144. Micro$oft = Satan's Own Software Company.

    Lead by a Psychopathic Megalomaniac (see his 'pep-talks', the guy's a raving lunatic!!!)

    If M$ really want good with the world they should release the next Windows for FREE!!!

    THose people grabbed too much money for themselve already (all Board of Directors are gazillionairs, they ROBBED the world blind!!!)

    Bill G. gave only 49 bln. to charity. Only HALF of his richness, nothing! (for him). He should give 99,9999% of his richness. THEN i would respect him.

    All extreme richness is EVIL and it's killing humanity!!!

  145. Wow this article hardly had any comments yesterday morning, now its gone crazy, everyones gone nuts at the mere thought of MS coming near Blender.

    I do trust MS to a certain degree, but i did also get a bad feeling reading the article. It could easily be completely harmless, these things can be blown out of context easily enough...

    Id like to see a second article, if there ever is one, on why MS is offering this or the possible positives, since we've already read the negative side of the story. That way we can make better judgment.

    If this is bad then i have to agree with the first post by Shadowman99 -
    Our developers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!

    But im not overly worried.

  146. Jake: You seem to take offense against Microsoft. Is it because they threatened to 'Cut off their air supply' when Dell was only contemplating putting Linux on a few of their smaller computer offerings? Is it their corruption of the ISO by bringing in 3rd world countries to vote for OOXML (and now ISO is broken and can't even get better standards for toothpaste passed because the number of votes that needs to be passed is now larger and none of the 3rd world countries are bothering to show up, or is it that Microsoft office uses OOXML but not the one passed by the ISO (but another one Microsoft made internally), is it that there is a published standard for OOXML (but the proprietary tags not part of what was published are designed to carry DRM tags), or is your real complaint that the ODF format was vetted and tested by the likes of Boeing, The Vatican Library, and other 'vested users' and was trimmed cleaned and refined over 3 major revisions over 3 years and was submitted to ISO at 300 pages, versus Microsofts offering, created in 4 months, being over 5000 pages long (and still has a lot of descriptions like 'works like MS Office'). Are those your complaints or is it that Microsoft has called 'other' systems 'a cancer' and basically declared war on them?

  147. Lucas Da Costa Dantas on

    I only see some kind of those damm hackers answers that really kills
    all that virtual and digital world .

    I tell you for give a try with Microsoft and make Blender the main source
    to whatever can be made with this .
    Theres lots of posibilities that with IN Windows ,it made a better and superior user
    experience with Blender files(and all that 3D).

    You see ,Blender is FREE and OpenSource ,
    i cant see any war thing about it .If Microsoft create other functions to Blender
    in Windows ,Blender will still be the same thing that it is ,the comunity will grow ,
    and to Blender Windows with another Microsoft experience .

    Those that insult in all that posts ,are who do not do anything to uses ,
    and who sayd anything about money ?

  148. Oh, I've just had an idea: Blender Foundation should reply inviting Microsoft to join Blender development providing patches for the desired file formats and, of course, releasing them under GPL license.
    Open Source is open, they can contribute if they want.
    IMO, Blender Foundation should not collaborate with Microsoft. Microsoft should change and collaborate with Blender.
    If they do that, it will be a good sign of them being more supportive towards open source. If they keep inviting open source developers to develop software for their interests, then we can think they are the same evil guys of always.

  149. Lucas Da Costa Dantas on

    Theres no evil ,
    Microsoft is what it is ,so Blender and all OpenSource .

    The difference its that Microsoft(and i think Windows) is not free ,
    as i think your work must to be payd to all that Free thing are created ...
    It must be able to join Microsoft and then to help Blender they way it can .

  150. Gez,
    Blender isn't that important. I think many big open source projects will be emailed by the MS guy and I also don't think that Ballmer is interested in such small communities but in the open source community as a whole.

    Ton will do the right thing

  151. This appears to be similar with what M$ is doing with Samba. Perhaps someone should contact the Samba group and see how they feel about it. It may give some insight into what M$ has up it's sleeve and if it something to explore further.

    Like the other posts have inferred, "Beware of the greeks bearing gifts!". I too believe that M$ is trying to use a trojan - and not the horse kind. I hadn't heard that M$ had bought Caligari. That makes me even more suspicious. Personally, I think this offer is their attempt at an Embrace. (oops, what is that in their pocket and why do they have a trojan in their wallet?)

    I'm not as much of a blenderer as some of the people here but have been around long enough to be able to recoginize the M$ modus operandi. M$ turning over a new leaf... Yeah, right. Only in their propaganda dreams.

  152. Unsettlingsilence on

    Wow! Can you say flame war? Where is an administrator when you need one? I use both Windows and Linux and I can think of plenty of things I would like better support for that Microsoft could produce. No offense to the wonderful people who took the time to produce them, but the exporters in Blender are some of the things I have the biggest problems with. How about an activeX exporter that actually works? Why not Wmv export? Linux is great, but it just doesn't stand up graphically to Windows if you are working on, creating, or playing games.
    Microsoft recognizes that the opensource community cannot be ignored. A step towards making windows more opensource friendly is a step in the right direction, and should be encouraged. It is more than I can say of certain other even more proprietary fruit related Operating systems. We should encourage everyone who wants to help make Blender better. Blender succeeding is a success for the greater opensource community. It proves that opensource is a good system and encourages more such projects. This should be encourage regardless of OS . If Blender wants to join the Lunix Elitists and go hide in their corner of the internet then they are welcome to do that, but if they want to be above all that then they should work with whom ever offers to make the best project ,that supports the widest range of users, the best they can, then that is the Blender that I am loyal to, and that I teach at my school. If an OS maker offers to donate to blender then welcome them to do so. Alienating any part of the community defeats the concept of community, and then this whole thing becomes a petty club instead.

  153. @Unsettlingsilence: "Can you say flame war? Where is an administrator when you need one?"

    To do what? Censor the discussion? That's not our style..

  154. Unsettlingsilence on

    As far as I can see this is just a bunch of people attacking Microsoft, instead of discussing the topic. The guy asked in his email how he could better serve our particular community not to be attacked. It shouldn't be our style trash people who offer assistance because we have a a different preference as to work flow.

  155. Unsettlingsilence on

    How about answering the guys question instead of attacking his employer people? I'm assuming the majority of us here have some concept of how we should treat guests, and this is not it. If you don't want his help then say no thank you and leave it at that. Otherwise. lets get to some constructive ideas, not bomb throwing. For goodness sake, we are not petty children. (At least I hoping not)

  156. Where is the problem? They ask for problems with Microsoft file formats is that relay evil?
    I think no.
    It's just a company like many others which had to make turnover to make investors happy...
    I'm not a Microsoft fan but, it's sad hitting Microsoft all the time.

  157. The only reason that open source exist,because of commercial software,Now I know there is a limited were
    MS can go,and perhaps Ton is evaluation its loops holes. T

  158. The only reason that open source exist,because of commercial software,Now I know there is a limited were
    MS can go,and perhaps Ton is evaluation its loops holes. TON, My advice is simply is (REVOLUTION).

  159. My guess is that M$ is asking the Blender developers to support their OOXML format. I know, it's stupid, but my guess is they send this standard letter to all open-source developers.

  160. All things aside, it could be (snickers) that M$ is trying to become a more upstanding citizen of the open source community but with their past that is really hard to believe. IMHO, given their past, they deserve all the resistance and suspicion (flames) they are getting.

    @Unsettlingsilence: "Linux is great, but it just doesn't stand up graphically to Windows if you are working on, creating, or playing games."

    Why should the linux community be the one to bend over backwards to accommodate windows? M$ are the ones that made the decision to go with the proprietary directx format and orphan opengl support. I don't see them porting directx to linux. They have the most resources and their format specs to do just that. However, once again, it appears they want a one way street directly to Redmond without giving anything in return.

    Just a thought... say they turn over the specs to wmv and activex (shudders) and those are implemented into blender. What's to stop M$ from coming back later and claiming that they did not license the use of these to blender for commercial purposes (one of their FUD open source agreements) and they infringe M$ patents?

    Maybe they are trying to change but I suspect the scorpion is still a scorpion...

  161. I have to agree with this:
    "Don't trust them, don't reply, just don't do bussines with them."
    That is exactly the same what they do, if you ask them for help. So let them taste their own kind of communication.
    As long i'm in cross-platform software development, i had so many problems with supporting microsoft file formats, that i don't want to hear a word about them. Blender, beware of MS, just keep walking your own way. If they really want to help Blender, they have lot of other ways to do that. At least, they can send some donations :)

  162. Catalin Festila on

    MS wants more users and Blender is an attraction.
    Blender may be a method of solving this problem.
    MS wants money and no knowledge.
    Email is even siropos and not punctual ...
    If you want good of Blender then pay the translation of documents in all languages and can we deal with development.
    I like Blender now .
    Have a nice day !

  163. Pavel Siska on

    Really Why is MS pushing his industry competition fight into opensource field?

  164. Lol ! ( I can't resist to add a little useless sentences to complete the big crowd of comments.)

    I laugh a lot reading so-much of primitive & basic anti-Microsoftism, but let be more calm ; don't you think Blender community should be 'over' the OS choice of user ?

    Most of Linux are free as Blender so people have choice to replace their Microsoft preinstalled software, by another one. If a larger percent of Blender user are still on Microsoft system, it's for other reasons than a complex 'evil possession', lol.

  165. he,he,he...Mr Gates! Change your way man, maby you are not this BAD...little steps...maby little one free distribution:) in next year? People like it:).Greetings!

  166. So.. I'm guessing the people here don't want to be able to export to XNA from blender?

    You like it when every single XNA book recommends 3ds, right?

  167. BlenderLovingSquirrel on

    Sean you don't know what you're talking about. Blender can already export to XNA.

  168. Wow. Surely this topic must be approaching a record for comments on BlenderNation. Is it really that interesting?

  169. @Bart: To do what? Censor the discussion? That's not our style.
    Right On!

    I don't see why people are making a big deal about this.

    P.S. Bart Should add a quote button that puts it in big cool quotes like in his articles.

  170. BlenderLovingSquirrel,

    I tried to use Blender to export to XNA, but I couldn't get my UV mappings to work. Coming from a programmer point of view, the integration could be better.

  171. "P.S. Bart Should add a quote button that puts it in big cool quotes like in his articles."

    Indeed! Even better, how about threaded comments?

    *tries to find some free time to work on this*

  172. Seems pretty clear by now that there is a significantly large amount of objections to the prospect of allowing microsoft to be directly involved in blender's production. However, there's no reason why we can't give them pointers on how to improve their OS to make it a better environment for Blender.

    I can't help, I don't use MS because I heard that Bill Gates eats children.

  173. BlenderLovingSquirrel2 on

    And the Golden Mr. Condescending Award will be shared by AgentA.L and Kernon - Congratulations guys, you've earned it!

  174. Quote: (Unsettlingsilence)

    "...I'm assuming the majority of us here have some concept of how we should treat guests..."

    Micro$oft is NOT a guest. It's a Predator, and it should be handled as such.

    Blender should stay as far away for M$ as possible, for it's own good!!

  175. Wow, 206 comments! This is a hot topic. I've actually read more about the issue now. :)

  176. the title is a little confusing to me, isnt .blend is already open file extension? if its about "their" file format support, is there any their software that can produce .blend? or they want blender to support their file format, avi and mpeg isnt enough? really, confused mode....

  177. blendercross on

    pyrosever :
    I can't help, I don't use MS because I heard that Bill Gates eats children.


    Think about the idea to sell tickets for this show...and Ladies and Gentlemen 208 Post - maybe a new record on bn
    (.....ok, ok but discussions around ms are anytime very emotional ,like you see here.)

  178. We need a patent-free, well documented, full featured, cross-plattform, Open-Source and GPL compatible 3D format which can be used by any 3D Software. It's such easy to answer :))

  179. whats the big deal. microsoft is just being competitive and wants to encourage people to their os by having better support. I think its fine for them to ask for help. It's not like they're trying to steal code or secrets or anything; its open source they could do that anyway.

  180. The facts as I see it are thus :

    1. Blender's source is completely open

    2. Microsoft certainly has the resources and free access to answer whatever questions they care to ask about the blender source and user experience - they don;t have to ask Ton anything

    3. If MS wants to do what they routinely claim, which is lead the market through innovation, they certainly have every right to release an MS Branded and markedly better Blender for a fee in accordance with the GPL

    4. It is utterly implausible that they have overlooked 1, 2, and 3

    5. They have a well documented history of predatory business practices, including

    6. an evolving practice of using patent litigation to legally entangle and crush opponents through the courts

    7. Therefore the content of any of their questions to Ton are not the real agenda. The engagement of Ton and hoped entanglement of Microsoft technologies with the Blender Development community itself is the real agenda.

    8. Therefore all discussion of open source formats and all that is completely beside the point. We need to think like lawyers here.

    9. It is a safe bet that this is simply a tentative step in a long term strategy that encompasses much more than Blender and has a much bigger picture in mind. MS wants to feel out just how stupid the opponent might be.

    Remember, sooner or later, if MS cannot stop the growing acceptance of Linux, and the growing dissatisfaction with Windows, it's only logical for them to seek entanglements with Open source projects. Why? Because then they can

    a. erroneously cite examples of violations of MS intellectual property to
    b. judges who don't fully understand the issue involved, so that they can
    c. litigate and get injunctions against entire software communities so that
    d. They effectively control that software arena through court orders that hinder the free development process

    Could MS use litigation to keep Blender out of Linux distributions until a court has had the opportunity to hear all sides (one of which is presented by a side that has no legal defense fund to speak of) and make a ruling (which takes years)? Hell yeah, they could if they were legally prepared to move forward with it today.

    The MS goal is to WIN, and increasingly the path to victory is the courtroom, not the computer lab. And this is really important. If MS can screw things up for just one open source project, they slowly establish legal precedents that make successive such campaigns easier and easier to win.

    The real question is, what is the open source community doing to ensure

    a. the ability to financial survive and respectably carry out a legal defense and
    b. that open source software remains the property of the entire free world irrespective of national borders, so that ignorant but well meaning judges in one country can't wreck things for everyone

    Dave Weese

  181. I'm no MS fan, but I'm amazed at the amount of vitriol regarding a simple question from Microsoft. The guy sending the e-mail is probably a decent, well-meaning developer who was asking an honest question and really wanting to help.

    On the other hand, saying "The ISO standard Office Open XML is an
    example of the direction we are moving towards" was puzzling. Either this fellow really believes the MS party line on OOXML, or he has no clue how upset most FLOSS developer about the whole debacle. Either way, it was a bad move, and makes the whole message sound akin to "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you."

    But on the gripping hand, let's give the guy (if not MS) the benefit of the doubt before we tear him to shreds.

  182. *can anybody tell which 3d app is the most used these days in the world???
    *computers are going democratic but not softwares...:for example here i can buy a computer but will wait for decades before being able to buy a genuine windows....
    *on the other hands oss solve all kind of software troubles when hardware goes democratic...
    *so what is the attitude of ms in such a worldwide transition:
    hardware more and more affordable and oss competing with commercial apps...???

  183. Lucas Da Costa Dantas on

    The most of you are far way from a serious discussion ,
    and have no idea about what are you talking about .

    I make the comments preety clear and direct ,clean .

    Theres no question that there is another thing besides
    Blender (and i not say a "the" person itself relate to all that free source)
    but to the program itself ?

    It will change anything about linux or what ?
    Afraid the programer itself see its better focus on features that work
    best for the user with a Windows experience ..?

    Only who create Blender can be the only guilty about anything
    that doest fit your need on other OS ,and even that others about they systems .

    Blender will still be Blender ,and better with other posibilities on Windows .
    Blender should not cut options because a kind of a war that does not have
    anything to do with Blender .But to those that create all that comments
    against the Microsoft .

  184. * MS uses hidden nsa key in windows...
    * and all this doesn't tell us when 2.46 will be ready for download

  185. Ok-lets move on to further development with blender News a new blender engine is in development for stand along and integrated with 2.50.this render is very - very unlike the commercial package.It will revolutionize render personal set up render farm.Less computers to render any blend projects. lets move on.

  186. @houari:
    2.46 should be available for download on May 17th or 18th. That article is still on the BlenderNation front page.

    Please remember that these comments are in response to the article above. I know you mean well, but some people might think it's rude to walk in on a conversation and say "please stop talking about that, let's talk about something else."

  187. I DONT THIS IS A TRAP AT ALL. I mean even if it is, maybe the ATIOGLXX.DLL problem will be fixed :) (that was a little greedy)

  188. Wow! Quite a passionatte thread of posts!

    Not sure if this qualifies to answer Ton's question as to what file formats are needing improvement for Windows users or not.... but my (non-programmer) take on it would be this;

    To be able to output AVI's with BOTH sound and video.

  189. * blender becomes very attractive....or is it its planetary community that aroused ms interest...
    * i personnally would advice anyone talking about 3d modelling to use blender because it is professionnal and ... free...and open source...
    * the one and only cracked soft i use is ..............WINDOWS XP.........believe it or not because i live in a country where buying genuin total mistery...
    *have a good laugh ... this is my situation...and i am being more and more attracted by linux as i already use a linux boot-able cd just to see how i inter-act with it...
    *rns:there seems to be agood news you had there..

  190. First, let's get back to the e-mail :

    I don't need Blender to support any file format from Windows. WMV is often mentioned : but the linguae francae for video files are .avi and .mpeg. They are also the only reliable formats in the long run. For the other files, I have no opinion.

    I'll add my 2 cts about the open/closed source debate.

    If some file formats are an issue, Microsoft engineers are smart enough to know that the only rational way to ensure compatibility is freeing the code. The problem has already happened : when I installed XP and a brand new Office in 2002, I was unable to open my old Word 2.0 files, and because nobody else than Microsoft could code an importer, which they didn't, I had to temporarily break the licence to read them again.

    For the same reason, I was unable to use some hardware (namely, a Guillemot audio card and a Fender-endorsed guitar MIDI converter) because the drivers were made for W98 and the producer had neither updated the code nor made it available. My new (in 2003) ST-Audio card made XP so unstable that it would reboot every 2 hours or so, even crashing a HD in the process. The manufacturer had ceased development sometime between 2000 and XP... - The same card works out of the box on Ubuntu Linux, which recognizes automatically an Envy chipset... and voilà. So I don't agree with Nielsblender about the 'better compatibility' statement : at least, our user experiences are very different.

    For these reasons, I think that making Blender depend on proprietary closed-source software would make compatibility hazardous over time and across platforms. Very old blender files can still be opened now, they might not be in the future if some part of the software was "binary only" and not portable. I had a talk this winter with a 50-years-old specialist of data archiving who was switching to open source standards for the same reason. He wanted the format to be still readable ten years later, even on new "Inox" or "Mannix" or "MAC-OS-XVIII", or whatever, systems. He wanted some converter to be "codable" even if the manufacturer discontinued the original software. Philosophically AND realistically, corporations can die or discontinue their products, whereas human intelligence will continue to function and data to be needed.

  191. *again........this is probably the biggest debate about blender future ever held....

  192. guys, I think first of all we should calm down, and rasonate. In MY HUMBLE opinion, i say ignorance is the worst thing could happen to the comunity, i propose first a page or a tread were explains -from a neutral point of view- all that is happening and let unexperienced users like me take his/her own opinion. Like someone said up here, its sad to see how the community is dividing just for a F·$&$%king S·%&$5hit like this when before it even doesnt matter from what OS you were.

  193. Hmm... I dunno, I don't think Microsoft will have anything to offer... and if it's Blender features exclusive to Microsoft, better to turn them down. Blender is doing well enough without them.

  194. @Ataru - Blender is doing well enough without them from the start. And thats what it should be, when we talk about m$. It would be much different if somebody from pixologic or maxon asked about compatibility between this two. For my point of view it doesn't even have much more sens.

  195. WOW!!!! I'm a Windows user. Looks like I need to fear for my life!! I'd feel safer admitting I was a ax-murdering child molester in this line of comments. I never realized I was SO STUPID!! Thanks for pointing that out!. And if some of you had your way, I wouldn't get to use blender as you are suggesting dropping a Windows port to keep us Windows monsters away from YOUR beloved Blender. I'll bet Ton and the Foundation never imagined his blood, sweat and tears would end up in the middle of such a Kerfluffel. WOW WOW WOW!!! And apparently many of you also think I'm REALLY stupid. You've never met me, but you know, Windows users are ALL the same. WOW!!


  197. @David Weese
    Thank you for the good points you've presented and the way you've presented them. Seems like good logic to me. If people disagree with this issue they should take the time to clearly (and sensibly) state their case as you have done.

  198. @Bart: Did you expect this topic to have this number of comments?
    (I don't really see why it's catching the interest of so many readers)

  199. Grrr...... Sneaky little.... Grrr.... Anyway. I don't think that openness is in any part in Microsoft's game "battle" plan.

  200. I would like to point out to all the people here claiming the MS deserves the benefit of doubt that you are gambling with the future of the entire open source community. David Weese's comments are spot-on. If you have objectively followed the history of MS you would understand that they don't cooperate with competitors, they destroy them. As PJ explained quite well, Ballmer has already stated his strategy in public. This is not childish MS hatred, it's common sense. The guy who sent the email to Ton may be a good person, but the people he works for have stated many times that they want to crush open source. To post comments on here that MS could be trying to do the right thing is very naive, or simply disingenuous.. Bill may give a lot of money ot charity, but he still has bucket-loads left for lawyers. It's a trap, nothing more. Just say no.

  201. I would like to point out to all the people here claiming the MS deserves the benefit of doubt that you are gambling with the future of the entire open source community. David Weese's comments are spot-on. If you have objectively followed the history of MS you would understand that they don't cooperate with competitors, they destroy them. As PJ explained quite well, Ballmer has already stated his strategy in public. This is not childish MS hatred, it's common sense. The guy who sent the email to Ton may be a good person, but the people he works for have stated many times that they want to crush open source. To post comments on here that MS could be trying to do the right thing is very naive, or simply disingenuous.. Bill may give a lot of money ot charity, but he still has bucket-loads left for lawyers. It's a trap, nothing more. Just say no.

    P.S. Thanks for putting it so well Bob.

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