Slashdot: The State of Open Source 3D Modeling
Gmueckl, the author of Moonlight3D, has posted an article on Slashdot in which he states that Blender, despite all its strengths, is ‘showing its age all along and efforts to improve on it have either been blocked or have failed in the past’.
I have never looked at the code though, so I can’t really comment on that aspect. What I DO know, however, is that projects don’t succeed on technical merits alone; they only succeed when they have the right people behind them. And with Ton Roosendaal already putting more than ten years of amazing amounts of energy and passion into this project and showing no signs of stopping just yet, I wonder if the other packages that Gmueckl mentions will be able to compare on this regard.
How do you feel about his article?
I fully agree with Gregor that it’s a shame that well designed programs like moonlight or k3d don’t get attention from developers. I advise everyone – especially university educated developers – to check that out.
It’s about time we get some competition, but especially it’s time someone makes a 3d program the average slashdot reader can understand and use.
-Ton-
“How come developers are still willing to put up with such an arcane code base?”
Gmueckl got the question…
Why everybody is using a crazy monkey?
I think because of:
– the main idea, 20 years old, 20 years still young.
– the step forward planned: http://www.blender.org/development/current-projects/changes-since-243/
– blender users know what are the lack inside blender and do their best to fix them and go further.
My millicent, ciao,
Rickyx.
[quote]So how come these projects don’t get the level of support they deserve?[/quote]
Having never contributed a single line of code to a 3D application, I can’t comment on the development side of things, but just from a users/content creators perspective:
a) The galleries. Some of the stuff in the Blender gallery looks amazing by any standard and I believe that might attract both new devs and users. Seeing great results from others is one of the best motivators. Nice images generate hype, not how modern your application core is. :)
b) Truly cross-platform. None of the other alternatives mentioned in that post work natively on the Mac, for example.
… just my 0.02 EUR ;)
I guess it’s like trying to build a completely new operating system.
It’s crazy to say “we want to code a software which is able to do everything” … that’s madness(also Sparta) because it takes so many years to be somewhat competitive with other software, so that someone uses your stuff. Also who should take you seriously for how many man hours you are willing to put into this.
I suggest to you use the code of blender to work on innovative ideas which the blender foundation is currently not willing to support.
Just look at Linux….there are so many different packages. None of them started from zero.
If you start from zero you will have a hard time to get serious help from others. Unless your ideas are so innovative that an early development status can be used for good results.
Make your stuff stand out of the crowd…don’t just say “we want to build a competitor for blender” …….yaaaaawwn.
Your project needs to be interesting(FROM THE BEGINNING). Blaming others is the wrong strategy.
How often does he think other 3D applications get rewritten just to take advantage of making a better core code base? 3DSMax,Maya,Lightwave,SoftImageXSI or name your own… I’m sure a lot of them still have very old code being used. Its easier to build on something already working than it is to start from scratch, no matter how well the core code was written.
Though… who knows.. like Ton mentioned… more competition can only be good!
I ripped into him a little on slashdot. I have used and taught most of the headliners (3D studio max, Maya, Lightwave) in the 3d world in the last 20 years and I find I’m using blender for all my personal and professional projects now. The interface is fast, and it has the fastest modeling workflow I’ve ever used. The only program I would use if I didn’t have Blender is Maya, all the others are too limiting in one regard or another.
I hear people say “it’s not modern enough” on many things. Modern is not better. But, I think it’s nice that he thinks Blender is wack. I like Blender myself, but it’s actually refreashing to hear someone say something else.
Hmmm… i don’t think that theres any other open source 3d apps which can be slightly compared with Blender…
Blender rocks – that’s it!
I can’t wait to get my hands on those improved K3D and improved Moonlight3D in a couple of months.
I think Gmueckl makes strong bold claims. First by stating in so many words that the Blender’s innovation is struggling along, which I think it is a very vague claim also, and next by stating that the current state of the art could be matched with ‘some extra manpower’ which I think is a very unrealistic claim.
Some manpower is what? 6 guys working around the clock? Let’s assume that Blender isn’t GPL and they have to cough up all that code themselves. Do you think they can really match the huge feature list of Blender?
Fluid simulation, Animation system (that has been thoroughly refactored), UV mapping, Soft Body, Game Engine, Physics Sim, Modeling tools, Audio, Sculpting, Nodes, etc etc etc. It’s a huge task. It’s like saying that “with some extra manpower, Blender would come on top of all commercial apps in a couple of months”.
I think I can speak for all of us that we wish the other apps all the best because there are very good apps out there that is just a dream to use (wings3D for example).
How come these other projects don’t get the level of support they deserve? Maybe the user base is smaller. How do you attract the masses? With a cross platform solution, with good documentation, with a good track record, by spoiling them (frequent release cycles with tons of goodies). That is what I miss from the other apps.
Oh, yeah. I also think taht most people don’t say enough of their own opinion(in a sincerly respectful way). But, can you blame them? Everyone who thinks opposite of their opinion, starts bashing them.
I was disappointed at how he came across. there are other ways to encourage developers to participate without tearing into other projects.
I agree with filipp that the reason I enjoy learning and using blender is the amazing work Ive seen others produce. When I see work by RobertT or @ndy I’m just blown away… and I may never be able to make such amazing art… But as long as Im using Blender I know that I’m not trying in vain.
I also love blender because of the commitment of it’s developers and their commitment to continue to build expand and improve blender…
Thanks to Ton and everyone else who contributes to blender.
I think, though, all in all, that if the devs just went over the base code and cleaned it up, Blender would run better than it allready is.
Okay,
as pablosbrain mentioned
WHO knows the source code of max, maya or whatever?
Only the developers and they are in this business probably since before the 1990s – so the code is also old in some parts.
gmueck is just angry about the attention blender gets.
>> “It’s about time we get some competition, but especially it’s time someone makes a 3d program the average slashdot reader can understand and use.””
With all due respect Ton, but the average Slashdot user is quite happy to pile on criticism because Blender cannot be mastered quickly. Blender, like any 3d software worth using, has a sizable learning curve. Many of the people who download Blender will create a sphere, hit render, and wonder why they only get a black render. “Too hard!” they will say. “It sucks”. I have pointed out many times that learning to play piano or violin is also difficult, but nobody seriously considers re-designing those instruments for the sake of the less talented.
Slashdot is not the peer audience we should be listening to. I was on a lightwave site recently (admiring the gallery and reading the forum), and they had numerous threads concerning Blender and it’s strengths. There were users upset at Newtek that Blender could do things that Lighwave could only do with expensive plugins. Several users were vowing to not buy LW again until Newtek tried to step up and be more competitive. These users mentioned fluid dynamics among other features.
I also was offended that the author of Moonlight is posting a hit piece on /. yet not mentioing his vested interest in the original post. I sense sour grapes. Where is the Moonlight 3d user community? Where are the online galleries?
henrymop: Hence the event core, tool and mesh system refactors. :P Also, I heard something about GHOST being worked on.
I replied to a post on Slashdot suggesting people work on a good parametric, industrial-strength modeller. I’d like to re-iterate that here:
The big missing link in the FOSS world (IMHO) is in CADD. I know there are some projects that are trying to build this functionality into Blender, but I don’t see that benefiting either world – I like Blender because its not weighed down by the kitchen sink.
C’mon, folks! The CAD world is a wretched Limbo full of proprietary terror, closed formats, and dis-satisfied users! A good cross-platform software could really clean up… we need a project of the caliber of the Gimp, Inkscape, Scribus and Blender that covers 3d technical drawing.
What we don’t need is another 3d modeller…sorry.
@shadowman99: I thought Ton’s remark about creating a 3d app that the average Slashdot user can use was quite tongue-in-cheek! Looking at the level of the average Slashdot comment, it would be a window with one button labeled ‘Make Beautiful Animation’ ;-)
I thought it was quite hilarious, and Ton’s remark even more so. What disappointed me was that I first saw this article linked from 3DTotal (a site which attracts mostly users of commercial modelers), but reading through the content makes the whole (3D) open source scene look like a bunch of squabbling children. Its negative publicity like that which can cause people to not even bother looking to see what fine products open source can produce.
“It’s about time we get some competition, but especially it’s time someone makes a 3d program the average slashdot reader can understand and use.”
-Ton-
SNAP! go ton. The minute I read this article (right when it was posted) I KNEW it had to be someone involved in one of those “other” projects with an agenda to tear down blender. You can learn blender in two weeks, less if you don’t have a job or are in school. it’s not perfect but what is? It is free, it is available, and NOTHING out there comes close in terms of the range of functionality. At least, nothing free. Even maya doesn’t have a node-based video compositor and built-in game engine.
that remark that these “other” projects could compete with blender in a few months time made me LOL. even I know how many man-hours have gone into that code.
and you know vista can still run MSDOS programs. it’s called backwards compatibility, not “dinosaur code”. there would be a revolt if 2.5 couldn’t open previous blender files from other versions
Ouch. Ton, that comment would have cut me to the core if I didn’t consider myself an above average slashdot reader. ;)
I managed to pore through the entirety (at least as it existed a few hours ago) of that thread. There were so many comments on the UI it was amazing. I like the UI, but I wonder if I am about the only person who likes it without being able to use it. I’m a huge fan of Blender, and marvel at what it is capable of, even though I can barely finish most of the simpler tutorials without frustration. I wonder if maybe a lot of those people complaining about the UI are more like me. You could make the Sub-Surface Scattering button as easy to find and accessible as you want, but I still have only the foggiest notion of what it is.
PLEASE DON’T FEED THE TROLL!
The guy appears to be suffering from juvenile jealousy disorder aka green-with-envy-syndrome; all he needs is a swift kick in the rear and an invitation to join the Blender coding community at a n00b level.
Again,
PLEASE DON’T FEED THE TROLL !!!
yea.. well, you know.. nobody takes slashdot seriously.
i dont understand why anyone even reads it.
but from now on.. i will be using moonlight3d only, because its modern.
.b
Blender succeeds because it places the needs of artists first. Artists don’t care what the code looks like. In fact, it’s usually better when stuff is done messily rather than the ‘right’ way, which typically ends up with lots of XML and terrible performance.
Blender has plenty of room to improve, certainly in the codebase. But at the end of the day, changes are meant to benefit artists, while other open-source 3D applications do not.
Blender may have a code base out of the ark but at least the program actually works and is pretty stable. I have never managed to even get Moonlight to open on my Windows system. Yes, I do have the latest version of Java Runtime Environment installed. Here may not be the best place to ask, but if anyone can tell me where I am going wrong I will happily give Moonlight another try. Until then Blender gets my vote every time.
WeWereWarned, This person is not a troll. A troll does it for the purpose of getting attention despite having an invalid opinion. This person has a somewhat valid point, but many of you think it’s flawed. That’s fine, but that doesn’t mean he has to be a troll for you to disagree.
I’ve not seen nor delved into the code base, but given it’s python based and nearly all the hard hitters have now implemented Python as their new scripting language it shows that Blender has been ahead of its time for a long while. (XSI, Maya, Houdini)
I don’t know about wings3d nor moonlight3d, I’m sure they’re very easy to pickup but is that at the expense of lack of features? I personally, agree there is some frustration in his posting about the condition of Open Source 3D. How he believes blender to be arcane and not moving forward I’ll never know. If you saw half the beta postings about some of the other commercial apps out there you’d think we never had it so good on Blender!
Studios use many different packages to get the job done. As blender keeps raising it’s profile I’m sure we’ll see more and more studios trying it out and finding a use for it some where in their pipelines.
I find it quite cool that blender is not sleek, modern, cutting-edge, flashy, windows-looking… I prefer its “russian design” philosophy… You know? Very simple, rock-solid, maybe a bit ugly, but made to do the work… I think once you know how to use it, it becomes your favorite app because of that, the work you do with it is well made, simple, coherent, in one word, it works. Today it has become my “creation platform”… It is where I think, design, study, play, build…
I think I don’t know any other program I feel so free in…
As a user of Blender since the first version (yes I did buy a licence during the pay-for-blender days) I have seen each and every new feature of added with happiness. To say that a couple of months is needed to get other Open Source packages up to Blenders level is…. well a little childish.
Blender has a good set of developers who actually care about the software and the users. What they don’t seem to care about is the headlines they can get. That’s why I and millions of users will stick with Blender and not be tempted by expensive (or illegal) copies of commercial software packages.
The proof of the 3D editor is in the render, so to the other open source packages out there that really want to compete with Blender….. how about Elephants Dream II?
I’ve used every COMMERCIAL app out there.Each package has it’s strength and weaknesses!All packages can do something better than the other one.Blender is the same.The power of the package is in the artist not the package ultimately.I’ve seen some jaw dropping work done in packages some would consider garbage.In my personal opinion,Blender is fast and efficient.As far a UI goes, every 3D package has a UI learning curve.I’m very fluent in Maya,Lightwave,and Animation Master.Personally, I hate XSI and Electric Image’s workflow. Some love it.Why would opinions about Blender be different?
I think Blender need’s to really strengthen it’s anination/rigging tools but other than that,it stands toe to to with the commercial apps and featurewise better in some instances.Blender is developing with breakneck speed and is awesome already.I am fluent Blender user as well and I use it when I want to get a modeling (not animation) job fast!
Take it from a pro in the game.7th year Blender user as well.
ROTFL!!
Umm…Gmueckl? You have got to be kidding, right? Have you actually looked at your own application? I think you are showing *your* age (9, maybe 10…no offense to 9 or 10 year olds). This slashdot post is CLEARLY a desperate attempt to get noticed. I guess it worked but, upon visiting your site…
– the screenshots — you’ve got to be kidding me.
– the galler–oops! sorry, no gallery to be found.
– the forum. ROTFL! (again). WIPs –> 1 (created by Gmueckl…no comment) Finished Projects –> 0 …
– the documentation. NONE!? LOL!
– etc. (I’m tired already)
dude, friend, pal, fellow 3D-lover…if you want (or in your case, NEED) help with your project, the last thing in the Earth you want to do is make an a$$ of yourself by criticizing those that are clearly light-years ahead of you. With a better attitude maybe, just maybe someone will entertain the idea of helping projects like yours. But first, you’ve got to show that you’re serious about it yourself. I mean, not one page of documentation? No, demo renders? Gimme a break.
LOL, I get the feeling that the moonlight designer is rather jealous that his project is not going as well as he wishes.
I agree that there were many patches or tools in Blender I find sadly missing now.
There was an openGL preview of a toon shader – gone.
And other elements sometimes not making it into Blender.
The funny part is that he comments on a well known issue of Blender which is supposed to be tackled with the next release of Blender anyway.
I think Blender has a long way to go. It still lacks many serious tools, like a well balanced render engine.
But a project with many construction sides just takes a lot of time. But I believe that when the work is done
the outcome will be even better.
At least I am going to introduce Blender as the mesh modeler and render set-up system of choice at my new work place.
Subdiv modeling with NURBS modeling is anyway the new way to go.
Claas
So, I suppose this means the coder of moonlight3d needs a large scale project to push his coding of new features and streamlined code, like an open source movie or some form of online game platform :)
Blender stands with its userbase, and its coders love it and help it grow. I guess moonlight3d needs somebody to love….
i agree with Ton about the competition(in the open source and free sector) giving blender a push and to give it something to strive toward.
after looking at moonlight3d and the other programs the author mentioned i don’t see any appeal in the guy or galleries that would make me want to use these apps in place of blender, so i guess this was his ploy to try to recruit developers to make his (boring) app more appealing to people who might want to use it.
The last time I used Moonlight3D, I found it to be very clumsy and unintuitive and SLOWWWW as heck (not to mention it crashed often on my linux system). When I discovered Blender a few days later, I deleted Moonlight3D.
Not to mention, where is the gallery on Moonlight3D’s website?
I don’t know if I’m a genious or not (LOL), but once you have learned four or five basic keystrokes, the workflow is pretty easy to follow and the program, with the extensive documentation we have, it’s not so hard to learn. And I’m not a 3D professional, only a passionate 3D hobbyist. All you have to do is taking some good reading.
I don’t have big knowledge in the 3D world nor I have much time to learn, but I can still create nice things. So Blender is not the monster many people describe.
I do not say it’s intuitive, but…hey… can a 3D package be really intuitive? Let’s face the truth…
I consider that article simply pointless. Period. If you want to compare what 3D packages can accomplish, show the features you actually have, don’t bash freely other programs.
We have a good 3D program, a wonderful community, passionate developers, an active lead developer (Ton), we have documentation teams, books, tutorials, forums, nice people everywhere. We have Ton, Tom, Campbell, Joshua, Brecht, Nicholas, Nils, Jens, Matt, Ken … just to name a few developers. We have all a free package can dream. Blender has all a succesfull free software should have. And that’s enough.
dont know about that. Just went into those two “not suported applications” and whats there?, now thats some retro stuff going on! and thats just by looking at the “interface”. Cant beat blender but hey there are ways of pin pointing things. There is always space for another Open Source 3D tool and as far as I can remember, the Open Source community distinguishes itself by NOT mentioning what the “competition” does not have. Now, that was really not classy from Slashdot or not Open Source style at all.. Just deleted my bookmark from Slashdot, thats for sure.. Keep it going blender!!
Yeah, he IS a troll.
There is no valid point.
There is no OS alternative to blender.
There will be no competition, because NOBODY needs competition in this sector.
The competition runs between the coders, the artists and
this is a real creative one.
Another program like Blender would be rather bad because now we have a concentrated, very nice and helpful community. Dividing this community into several parts (means programs) would be a loss of talents and creativity.
The future lies in the concentration on one project.
Didn’t help the mudbox-like sharp3d guy with the implementation of the sculptmode in blender?
This reminds me of the paper I’m in the middle of writing, on civic responsibility and identity.
There is a little known fact (thought to be an opinion) that all men are equally capable. The struggle to understand this ties itself in to the very struggle to understand our universe. The difference between indeterminacy and determiniation, is the difference between flashood and fact; where, a fact may be that something is undetermined :P.
The single fact, the single bit of context that ties this whole mess of indeterminacy together… is the fact of identity!
There you have it! I’ve blown my pulitzer prize. And given my secret to the world.
This dude’s software is not blender in the infinite precision of it’s identity. Through Mimesis(Rene Girard) he sure wishes it could be. This is in fact an endorsement :) lol. He’s just trying to get our attention. If he does deliver and change the infinite precision of the identity of his software, only then will his software be enticing. He jumped the gun in essence. He’s betrayed himself.
Silly Slashdot people
I don’t think there is good or bad in open source, there is useful and not so usefull.
Sounds like sour grapes to me
Well, sounds like someone is sad because his program does not gain enough attention.
BUT i personally think there is a hidden truth behind this, if blender grows without care of its code design it could kill blender sooner or later. I personally think that blender is at the moment the best free, open source 3d suite and will stay there the next few years. And from a designer perspective i do not mind some slappy workarrounds in its code as long as the render speed is high enough and the tools are working.
And we should not forget during the hole comparing with programms like Maya, XSI, 3dMax, C4D, zBrush etc. they are better then blender but not every designer can effort the products and the cost intensive updates. A freelancer may have some problems funding an effective mix of 3dmax/maya and zBrush and probably wont use it full in range as long as he does not work for a big game/movie company.
If blender is too hard to learn to use it means you are too lazy to sit on your ass and read the great documentation such as the noob to pro or the manual. That’s how i learned and i didn’t find it too hard.
I actually started learning blender because i was using Bryce so much and it was way to easy and i knew i had to learn something more powerful
Folks, I’ve decided I’m quitting Blender. Tried Moonlight 3D and I’m hooked.
After all, I’m sure that was the point of gmuekle’s spam right? Get the word out to enough people and somebody’s going to fall for it. It’s like the herbal manhood enhancements.
Seriously, though, although I appreciate that the Blender community needs a good laugh from time to time, and “a few months” between Moonlight 3D and Blender is a good chuckle indeed, I have to wonder how this made it to BlenderNation. Is this newsworthy for the Blender community? Personally I think it makes Blender users seem a bit insecure to need to circle the wagons like this. I’d have just ignored it. Actually, I *did* just ignore it, until now.
As for Blender needing competition, I think Blender would evolve with or without it, but in any case it certainly has plenty of competition to motivate continued improvement. Maya, Max, XSI, Houdini, Wings (yes, an open source app), MudBox, Zbrush, and a dozen other apps out there… to say nothing of the video editing functionality which Blender currently OWNS in the open source world but is done better by some proprietary apps, are still around to keep Blender on its toes.
@Yorik. ‘Russian design’ ?
Noooo, it’s Dutch Design, ;-) lol!
“Hollandsche Degelijkheid” – That’s Blender!
I’ve been using Blender since 2.34, not that long, really, but I’m only 14, and I learned the interface in about a month, juggling school at the same time, and now I am quite proficient with it. I would go crazy if I tried switching to a commercial app and had to learn that UI. I have already become so accustomed to it that I end up accidentally using hotkeys in Inkscape and the Gimp! I think the relative complexity of the UI weeds out the people that won’t devote their time to the art of cgi with the people that will. If they aren’t patient enough to learn the UI, the way I see it, they will not make it in the 3d world. That, and they probably won’t be patient enough to devote themselves to finish a project. I liked Bart’s comment on a “Make Beautiful Animation” button (not that I wouldn’t like that :P) but I am annoyed by people that are like that and won’t take the time to surf Wiki. I think that a lot of things have beened ruined to some extent by it being too easy for the common masses to do it on the computer. For example, simple video editing has gotten so easy thanks to Windows Movie Maker and the likes, that it has mutated from an art form to an industrial movie printing press, and movies have sort of lost their magic. Keeping the users specialized to real artists preserves the magic of cgi.
Oh and another thing is its not like other software is so easy to find, I didn’t find blender until about 2-3 years into 3D world. Someone happened to mention it on a forum and I was ammazed at how I did not know about this software before.
The only thing that is still mysteriously missing from the official Blender is the Cloth simulation.
That’s the thing I do not understand why this isn’t implemented in the official release yet.
Hi All,
Give a XBOX360 dev kit to bunch of lawyers and you’ll get nothing in 6 months.
Give a XBOX360 dev kit to a group of game dev and you’ll get something in 6 months.
The same thing goes with blender. Blender Community ROCKS!
-BrokenSword-
“Personally I think it makes Blender users seem a bit insecure to need to circle the wagons like this. I’d have just ignored it. Actually, I *did* just ignore it, until now.”
Absolutely. Besides, Slashdot is largely a community of largely techies/sysadmins and angsty high school students. It’s not exactly Blender’s target audience of digital artists. Who really cares what they think? If they’re the kind of people that would prefer XML export and some magical system design to actual production tools that get work done, then fine, let them live in their introspective little world.
Naw. I haven’t taken a look at the code behind Blender but my guess would be that if the core architecture was re-coded, everything else that works great right now would also have to be fixed and because they were intended for the older core, not a newer one, they may cease to function correctly or have to be hacked to make them functional but not necessarily match previous performance or bug-free existence.
I kind of feel like this article, after finding out that he is the author of Moonlight|3D, is possibly just whining/a rant from a frustrated creator that attacks the top of the field just because they’re better than them. Something I paralleled this to right away is the “war” between Linux and Windows. Sometimes Linux lovers will attack Windows because it is the dominant OS, the same goes for Windows lovers. Of course the thought that this could be just a ploy to help publicize M3D is also plausible.
Why don’t other projects that allegedly deserve support get it? Why don’t they progress? Well first off – perhaps they don’t really deserve the support. To create software that people like is hard enough but to create software that is free and inspires people enough to put hundreds of their own hours and their own money into the pot is far harder. I can’t even find the M3D site in the Wayback Machine, so I don’t know when it was started and according to Alexa there are only 4 sites linking in, which granted is probably more than that by far but gives us an idea, and they place in the 1 million range for rank (and thats up nearly 250,000 in the last 3 months) while Blender.org places 12,914. The M3D forums have 436 users while BlenderArtists has 24,021 (of course don’t forget the 16,161 from the Blender.org forums). I think the amount of people who are visitors and take the time to register says a little something about the program itself.
Another large attraction to Blender I think both artists and developers have is that it is not just a singular modeler, or a animation application, it is being developed with everything – even game design and sound – in mind. It is working to be the ultimate dream software of the 3d movie artist one application to do it all, for free. Sure, this idea isn’t new and I’m sure there’s projects out there that have tried and failed, it is the way of a lot of OSS projects. They fizzle out due to time restrictions, lack of development, etc. Whatever the case may be, bottom line is that someone looking for software that can do everything finds this project and while at first may be thinking “Yeah, right. It can’t be done.” but once they investigate and look at the professionalism the application, site, community, and output display the visitor sees that Blender works, it can do a ton, anyone can contribute, and starts to think, “Hey…maybe it can be done.”
The experience Ton has is priceless and I really think that the beginnings as NaN and then moving to the release as OSS has helped create such a strong user base as well as a sturdy program. I believe the foundation starting with NaN gave a lot of people the chance to be attracted to Blender without the bad connotation that OSS is inferior and shouldn’t be bothered with; it’s this fan base that helped release Blender to the public and started the strong following that is thousands strong today. I don’t know Ton personally but this is what I’ve observed of him through the software, posts he has made, the videos from ED, etc. Ton has extensive experience, and that’s an understatement, with Blender as well as managing an organization. He also has great dedication to the software and the ideal of spreading 3D to everyone. The experience he gained from the early days when Blender was commercial have helped him create and maintain a functional organization. And another great thing is that he doesn’t just sit back and delegate, he’s done his share of coding. Now we have a large team of people that work with Ton and develop the software. The amount of passion, effort, and time that have gone into this program from Ton and everyone definitely helps; combined with Tons 10+ years of work they give stability which lets things get settled and the establishment of a process, a name, and a solid program that, oddly enough out of stability, evolves and changes quickly.
Something that I aim to do in the future is contribute to the development of Blender because the developers have given me Blender, me a 3D outlet for my artistic side that I didn’t have to cut off my ring finger and remove a kidney for. They have given us this great application and they want to push it further and if we can help the Evolution of Blender (heh, should be a DVD title), let’s do it. Everyone out there that uses Blender is contributing. By adding that +1 to the download count you’re giving one more reason for the developers to feel that their work is being used and appreciated. Those of you who are working to become great artists, those of you who are (of course though learning never stops even if you are a master), newbs and blenderheads alike, all those great WIPs and galleries of art are testament to the power of Blender, giving it a massive portfolio of what anyone from anywhere at any skill level can do. Developers are adding features that make the program better, making modifications that speed it up, adding code that users have requested like, more recently, SSS and UI changes (mappable hotkeys!), creating a program that everyone can use and use for both professional and private work.
Is Blender perfect? No. But you know what? The developers know that. The constant work they do proves it. As such, they put hours upon hours into the program. And of course if you want to attack the program from the perspective that it isn’t as “modern” or lacks features that leading commercial applications have, then to you I say read that again: commercial. Blender is OSS, it’s free, and when utilizing developers that don’t code for Blender as a job, time becomes a bigger factor. You don’t have them for 8 hours a day, five days a week. Not to mention that versus having many miles between developers and not always being able to have a large discussion in person about ideas and thoughts they have. If a new feature is to be added, someone has to do the research for it. It takes time. Lots of it. And the lack of a feature, like SSS, has not stopped people from creating competitive, creative, excellent artwork.
Learning curve? Make it easy for the masses to use? Yes, this would be nice. But a lot of the time what happens when things are made easy for the sake of inviting new users and making their experiences excellent, advanced features that they would need when they progress to a professional level and current power users utilize may be sacrificed. That’s only one example of what might be sacrificed when trying to make it newbie friendly, there’s a lot more. Performance for the sake of fancy menu buttons and alpha-blending GUIs, work speed in the name of being able to click a menu versus use a hotkey (which is faster), are just a few more. I think Blender has a happy medium right now; it could be a little more user friendly but you can’t get something for nothing.
Another unique thing about the community is that unlike many other 3D communities were a small amount of users actually modify/code for the program, Blender has many more developers that not only post on the forums and read what users would like or bugs that have been found, then modify the code, but that also use the program for their own art.
Ton and all the developers have made the decisions until now – and look where it has gotten them and Blender. The top. How many software packages can claim the title of creating the first Open Source movie? Just one ladies and gentlemen: Blender. Take a gander through the BA forums and the comments on BN and read all the stories about how people have been converted from using those commercial packages that have thousands of developers that are paid to work on the program every day of the week, packages that can cost thousands of dollars and are still being abandoned when a Google search or friend reveals Blender. Even the person who wrote this blurb admitted the dominance of Blender in OSS 3D applications. Do you really think you could up M3D or some other application up to the stage that Blender is on with just some extra manpower and a little time? or do you admit that it’ll take much more than that (and besides, you’re still working to reach Blender, with Blender as a model. If it’s so arcane and easy, wouldn’t you want to diverge from it? Plus you could look at Blender code for reference and ideas, something the developers of Blender surely didn’t always have the benefit of)?
Thank you Ton, developers, and all those who use Blender.
>Kudos to Matt Ebbs post and Tons, as well as Basse’s.
Sorry about the unnaturally long post. :)
Blender has two areas that *really* need some work, and oddly enough, they’re both rather easy.
First, there should be a Drafting Mode–the first step to CAD/CAM that allows a user to treat the scene as if they had a T-square and a scale. The big breakthrough for me was learning how to constrain axes, I could actually draw a straight 2d line!
Second, how about intergrating mjpegtools into Blender. I’ve written some scripts and bam! out the video comes. Oh by the way, remember that X and Y axis must be divisble by 16 for this to work, and you’ve got to name the first JPG 0000.jpg, but that’s about it. How hard could it be to add a Save as Video item?
Other than that—Blender will rule completely when Verse is fully functional.
@Zinc Chameleon
blender on linux has ffmpeg integrated for me… i can directly render to divx/mpeg4/mjpeg/whatever. maybe it’s not available on windows?
http://www.moonlight3d.eu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98w
http://www.blender.org/features-gallery/gallery/images/
True, very close. In a few months it’ll be better than blender. You can already see the immense potentiel of this app.
“Gmueckl dreams”
basse:
Stop joking like that. Last time you did that on blenderartist people took you seriously :)
Utter Crap.
I call BS. Blender passed its commercial competitors many builds ago, and continues to improve and innovate to this day. This guy, as Bart puts it, is clearly pushing an agenda to further his own project by shooting down others, and that is NOT how it works in the OSS community. This article will hurt him by revealing his utter bigotry towards his competition.
Also, I think Ton used the word “competition”, solely because he knows that Blender blows this guys software out of the water – and it does…
By the way… only when you begin to have “haters”, like Blender seems to be slowly attacting, do you know you truly have a commercial-grade application.
Also (i know… last post, i promise), I happen to be a /. subscriber, but between this and the growing far-left politics the site seems to be pushing, i’m definitely not renewing my subscription there anytime soon.
shame on these kind of “wars”. Opensource projects should collaborate and join forces. Instead of opensource VS opensource it should be opensource vs commercial race.
wait a moment… isn’t blender free? so what is all the fuss about, just nonsense in my eye. if anything it should be who’s is better so both can strive for perfection…
this is just like those linux kids… no wait my compile is l33t times better1!1!1!
I don’t want to get too deeply into this, but I do want to mention some points about Blender.
About a year ago I was searching various 3D forums…looking for some info on how to learn 3D. I found a theme running through some of the posts…a theme made by several professionals in the field. Basically they all said the same thing: “I use (high end commercial application) and if you want to learn 3D download Blender. It’s free and all of the concepts are the same as in the commercial applications.” A couple of them mentioned Wings3D, but to be honest, until reading this news item, I’d never heard of this Moonlight3D program! I think that says a lot…
Incidentally, I’ve heard people complain about the Blender interface, but I have no problem with it. Granted it’s the only system I’ve used, but I found it quite easy to pick up with just a slight bit of effort!
Well, that’s my two cents…
Keith
It takes years to develop something as useful as Blender, Linux, or any Open Source Softw., you just don´t say “I will make it better in x months or (most likely years).
Some people just don´t realize that the level of maturity Blender has, it´s been only made posible by many, many code creators that had been gaining experience and feedback by allowing the making of a full-fledged short (Elephants Dream) and as I write a movie (PlumÃferos)…
Those capabilities Blender has, are not made by making a writing on a hankerchief…they took a while to come up…but they are here… and actually work!!!
It would be nice to Blender to have Open Source competitors, but they have a long way to go.
It’s humorous that he uses Maya, XSI and Max in his arguments in later posts. As though not being better than them in every regard was some sort of failure in the fundamental design of Blender. I can honestly say that i have used Lightwave and Max both (not maya) as well as XSI and Wings and various other modeling and animation tools and they all have their own particular design flaws. Max’s UI is completely insane. I can’t understand how someone can compare Blender’s UI in a negative manner when comparing it to that kludgy, slow beast of an interface. It’s like an experiment to see how many menus you can open at one time. Take a look at a Max screenshot some time, and then realize that half of the menues, buttons, sliders and check boxes are actually off screen. You have to scroll it vertically AND horizontally to use it. Allowing all of the interface on screen at once renders your 3d windows to postage-stamp size. If it’s been greatly improved since Max 4 R2, i wouldn’t know, but it was torture back then.
Blender has progressed amazingly in just the past couple years, and it seems to be continuing in same fashion currently. A lot of people I am aware of that use Lightwave are seriously considering adding Blender to their pipeline, if not switching to it completely, because Blender has features now that Lightwave still lacks, or has poor support for. This is, to me, telling. If people are willing to admit that their $500 – $800 application is lacking the features that an opensource app can deliver, how long will it possibly take before Blender can be found in common use in studios across the globe.
I simply don’t understand the interface issue. How are Lightwave or Max’s interfaces ‘better’ compared to Blender’s? Those two apps are both riddled with menus and buttons and other ‘diversions’ that keep you away from the process of modeling and used to slow me down to a point that i became frustrated as hell with both of them. Blender’s got it’s own issues, but the interface was like a dream come true for me. Maya’s interface must be better than sex.
/end rant
ccherrett:
>Stop joking like that. Last time you did that on blenderartist people took you seriously :)
heh you are right.
but i do have tried Moonlight3d (atelier) years back, when i was hunting for animation/3d software for linux. i had tried blender but couldn’t do _anything_ with it.. and went hunting for other 3d programs.
Moonlight was ok, interface was friendlier than Blenders at first glance, and i was able to do something with it even. but i wasn’t happy.
so i decided to try Blender again, and this time actually force myself to learn some of the buttons. and ofcourse i fell in love with the ugly little thing. felt much more artistic tool than all these other “cad like” monsters.
especially buttons like [-], without any further explanation, allowed me to create new material or open already defined material (or other datablocks, or that they were called datablocks even) made me only love it more.
and renderings that it produced were something completely different from other “raytracing” packages that always looked clean and sharp. blender has nice artistic soft touch. original.
ok.. i stop now. i could talk for hours.
.b
I am the good Blender Troll,so do not mistake for that assH— who bash blender!
I love blender! I have Maya,3Dmax and Ligthwave .I rather choose blender over these application,because blender is easy to model and the work flow is amazing!
I can hardly wait for blender 2.50 to come out,I have seen some of it features and it will blow those other open source to hell!!!
jahka partical system with hair style,fur browser and a new render engine to help render hair and fur with fluid effects.
Even NewTek company is watching blender development,I wonder why?
One question? How can I change blender splash and put my own work instead?
See Blender have a lot of supports from all over the world.YEEEEEAH!
Well don’t get me wrong, I really love Java as a programming language for some sort of apps (especially servlets) and of course well designed programs. I won´t talk about Blender code here, but I took a look to the Moonlight|3d code because (as expected) it didn’t run just like that. Believe me when I say that as a dev team you need a little more organization. Code is full of personality LOL, and thats when you can distinguish clearly code between several developers. I went trough all the core code and some UI and that was enough. Some times it seems over moduled (if u know what i mean) and sometimes it seems just too monolithic (or even declared empty methods). Java maybe isn’t the best languaje for this type of app your trying to achieve, or maybe they went the wrong way. Just look at Sunflow’s code (Java of course) to see what I’m talking about, it’s really beautiful. C/C++ in the other hand is and it will be always rubish to the eye, but take a look at Blender’s code, I really don’t want to know how they do what they do!! I just can say, to achieve that you have to be a TEAM, and to be lead by a superior mind (mean Ton).
Another thing that pops to the eye, is that Moonlight’s website has links to Yafray, Sunflow, and Blender. Of course Moonlight work with sunflow and yafray, right? (just guessing) But hey, Sunflow’s website has exporters for Maya, XSI, and of course Blender! Yafray works as plugin natively! And believe me when I say most of us use Yafray in a LOT of works. Well, why don’t you go and talk to these excellent raytracer head admin and try to get ur link there, or even better, work with them. As Yafray is natively supported in Blender, maybe you can achieve a native support from sunflow (both Java). The point here is to construct, not to point out what others have and you don’t, believe me they have worked hard for it. You should do the same. Oh… and no, i won’t become part of the dev team :P
Oh! My mistake…
From Auria link:
http://www.moonlight3d.eu/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98w
“The following two pictures were a quick test to confirm that Moonlight|3D passes GI and caustics settings correctly to the embedded Sunflow renderer.”
I saw that earlier, but I didn’t know Sunflow was capable of doing THAT, :S Sunflow devs should be crying rivers.
Looked more like a flame out from a malcontent developer than an “article” to me. And his damning evidence in the lack of move to an XML format? Shocking.
If being anachronistic means hardly ever having a modeler crash on you, then I don’t want to be right. Also, most of those modelers he’s pointed to are not very sane regarding their friendliness to actually model something in a somewhat natural manner or timespan.
That is all.
I looked at this on slashdot (and commented there). I don’t see Blender as being stagnant. Sure there are other applications out there, and its good to see how others are doing things (if its a good idea and open source, then you can use it too). Much of Blender has been refactored. Its a work in progress to be true, but you can accomplish a lot in a short time with Blender. I am always amazed at how much use (useful features) gets crammed into such a tiny amount of software. Every 6 months or so (perhaps a little longer) Blender gets ‘shaken up’. The code gets audited, refactored, or a major project demands features which leads to more innovation. Blender is a long way from being ‘done’, but it certainly is ‘getting there’. As for code being old… software doesn’t age like automobiles. It doesn’t ‘wear out’ with use. Good ideas 5 years ago are good ideas today. If software did wear out, then the COBOL programming language (circa 1956) would be long dead. Instead, it haunts us, just as its developers (who have all long ago passed). But programs written in it for credit card companies and banks continue to run, 50+ years later.
Really, should this be a headline on blendernation that someone posted something on slashdot?
But just one sentence to this “topicâ€: Good coders are invited to contribute to Blender.
I Agree, why even bother to post such a headline? Thought everybody was tried of “My application is better than yours” discussions…
I’ve tried Moonlight3D a long time ago (I think it was part of some old SuSE distro). It was a nice program at that time, but then it dropped dead, if I remember correctly. Nice to see it’s back.
Nevertheless, stating that Blender is outdated or old-fashioned is quite stupid. I’m running Linux as my working environment for some time now. So, I’m dependent on the progress of several open source applications (Gimp, Kmail, Quanta, XaraLX, to name some), but there’s none of them having such an incredibly high improvement rate as Blender does. Honestly, I can’t even find the time to check out all the new features and enhancements (not to mention the python plugins) as fast as they appear.
Regarding the “arcane code base”: I don’t work with the code base. I just run the application. And the blender UI – after some really hard time for getting used to it, I admit – does what I want it to do. And that is what counts for me.
Having a second look at K3D, which came with my Fedora Core too: This is how programmers would like to model, I suppose. This may be better and more “modern”, but it definitely is not for me.
Nevertheless, I suppose by making me (and many others) visit the Moonlight3D site gmueckl got what he wanted. ;)
@Auria: Nice one! :)
Well time will tell, just because something is good doesnt mean its gonna win or has the right to win or be the top dog. Talent and features isnt everything, and if the artist dont wanna use it then take a hint. If you cant get your product out there (open source or not) then how do you expect to be around for long ? So all I have to say is
… and ?
Tadeusz
PS Flipp has a point !
jealousy
If I were a mod, and this was a BlenderArtists thread, I’d have locked it by now.
@Tony, well, it’s a good thing we’re not BlenderArtists then, isn’t it? I knew this was what was going to happen when I posted it and I’m not disappointed; the reactions so far haven’t disappointed me..
It’s easy to agree that Blender is “better” than competitors like K-3D and Moonlight and AOI, and it is obviously very comprehensive; but at the same time it cannot do everything and it must choose some ways to work and exclude others, so a more constructive discussion would be what other 3D modeling tools could be useful additions to Blender, with a specialized and complementary role.
@Bart, I suppose so. No offense intended.
maybe this developer just wants to be invited to join the blender development team…? when reading the original slashdot post i thought that this is all really a bit silly, kindergarden stuff.
the only question i have: how/why did this story make it to the slashdot frontpage…? as much as you could criticise digg for having all sorts of stories that might be of less interest to a more mature audience, a story like that one probably would have been removed from the digg frontpage quickly (if it ever made it that far), because too many people would have marked it as “inaccurate”. i think slashdot either needs a digg like system or moderators who do a bit more fact checking before posting a story.
Most people will know me from the Blender conferences and my opinion and expertise regrading Blender and high-end 3D tools. I’d say it’s at least half way educated which gives this comment and its modding some credit.
>>>
The submitter is a troll
(Score:5, Insightful)
by Qbertino (265505) on Sunday May 06, @05:05PM (#19013049)
As far as I can tell K3D and Moonlight haven’t moved an inch in the last 5 years. They both look like students summer projects to me.
Blender has weedy parts in its codebase, everyone knows that. Any programm this complex and mature has those. But they are being replaced fast and thouroughly by a thriving core team lead by the founder of Blender. Blender runs out of the box on 7 plattforms and has a featureset that closely competes with current topline commercial tools. Try to catch up on that alone ‘in a few months’ Mr. Smartass. Blender is responisble for the recent price drops in the 3D tool industry alone and when it eventually fully supports Renderman yet some toolmakers are going to have to redo their businessmodel big time.
The usual UI bickering is bogus aswell. Apart from being just as hard to learn as any tool of same capabilities, blenders UI has been comletely OpenGL accelerated from the begining – one of the things it’s unique in iirc. Blender’s learning curve is steep, as with any high-end 3D tool without a stack of books. But with the amount of material and books available on the web for free nowadays makes this learning curve not nearly as hard as it was 5 years ago. The featureset is breathtaking and has commercial providers such as Newtek struggling to catch up in some areas (notice the recent addition of an improrved node editor to Lightwave 9 – nothing but a response to Blenders node editor). Sidenote: I own a professional licence of LW 8, a commercial licence of Blender (from the NaN days) *and* use Blender since back in the days of 1.8. I haven’t updated to LW 9 for the very reason that Blender 2.43, a few little things aside, offers everything professional 3D needs. And then some – an full-blown integrated compositor for instance.
Blender is as mature and developed as any open source project could wish for. As *any* software project could wish for actually. Features and improvement are being added on a regular basis and it’s fully backwards compliant with any blender file, and it’s professional roots not only show but have become more and more visible.
Bottom line: The submitter of the above article either doesn’t know what he is talking about or is a troll. Or both.
I have change my handle name to Blender Troll!
you have say a Mouthful,thank god !
Fine call, Bart. I think I summed it up: a malcontent, posting to a general tech blog. Weak, especially considering the comments worth reading over.
Sorry to double post, but, professional apps have taken just as long to become acquainted with, if not longer than Blender. There is such freedom with the tools in Blender, that bringing up an “arcane” code base is such a vomit argument. Honestly, there’s so many ways to exploit the natural law of how many of the tools in Blender cohabitate, it’s ridiculous.
I dont want to see anymore “Average”
Blender has enough competition in Maya and Autodesk!
So its very good that all Programmers work together on a high end product!
So much average Programms in Linux Blender is one of the few spikes out of the normal!!!!
Blender envy.
Personally even if i don’t understand Blender entirely, I still think it rocks. May have it’s rough edges but that is taken care of.
Now on the other hand….
If somebody that is completely new to 3D wants to start working with it ,Blender might be a little bit imposing, so there is a real need to have some introductory 3D software for newbies, so instead of trying to figure out how the UI works, the user could start learning and toying with. If it is a casual interest then usually they will not move forward and stay with that particular app, but if the interest keeps up building the user ITSELF will move forward, learning and guess where it will gravitate?….that’s right, Blender…
personally I’m trying to get to that stage myself, since I don’t have that much time to work with Blender, but as a developer I always keep an eye on it.
But in order to relief some creative stress I use Art Of Illusion, its simple, works well and helps me to start quickly
Nobody with that web page design can talk seriously about modern coding, i think… :p
In the other hand, Blender can work very fast, very accurately, in a very professional way. So, why try other “modern stuff” like this guy (certainly jealous of Blender) program? Let’s youngers do this. I’ll keep my hands Blending. :)
I saw this article on a RSS feed, and it grabbed my attention right away.
As Goosey says, this fighting between the ranks isn’t good for the community why not A) prove that you are better or B0 contribute your knowledge to a project that’s out there.
And as me yoda says, who knows what the sourcecode from 3DMax or Maya is? Windows is rumoured to have an archaic sourcecode, but see how far that has come.
And last of all. I don’t care if my fries are still cut by hand. It’s the fact that they taste good and they satisfy my needs.
After fruitlesly bashing away on 3DMax and Maya, Blender grabbed me, and for the first time in my life, i understood how i have to do it. And THAT is something that developers should care about to. Does the software feel natural to the people who work with it.
oh no, he is also from germany … now, im leaving my beloved country :-/
S.
“Blender had been running good on old code, that more of an insult to newer program then it is to Blender.”
talking abt. competition: there is no OS competitor out there. there isn’t a single integrated package that can take the challenge. I know lots of specialized programs – material editors, modelers and renderers – but there is no chance you can build a working and efficient workflow with them. besides, OS renderers seem to be the only projects which actually reach a somehow mature state, see yafray for example (as a user i don’t see the point in versioning yafray in anything below 1.0). i remember a project called mind’s eye, which wanted to get in the ring with 3ds max and such… turned out to be waaaay too ambitious and nothing but hot air.
talking abt. spirit: blender developers on the other hand never claimed they are attacking the established commercial 3D packages. instead they put their focus and efforts on making the tool right – the way they think it’s done best. this concept has been proven right and makes blender so unique. keep it that way, and some day you might find blender taking over hollywood, without ever having anounced it!
rock on
Quoting Shadowman99:
“I was on a lightwave site recently (admiring the gallery and reading the forum), and they had numerous threads concerning Blender and it’s strengths. There were users upset at Newtek that Blender could do things that Lighwave could only do with expensive plugins. Several users were vowing to not buy LW again until Newtek tried to step up and be more competitive. These users mentioned fluid dynamics among other features.”
I just wanted to say that I am one of those Lightwave users that jumped ship for Blender. I was so mad that LW v9 didn’t have true Catmull Clark subdivision editing and Blender did that I didn’t upgrade from 8.5 to 9. Now I only use Blender and love it. Sure there are some things that I’d like Blender to have or some changes I would like to see, but for God Sake, it’s FREE!! Thanks to Ton and all the talented developers for making this kind of tool available! I love it!
i can’t understand how a bad code can do so much thngs, and how can update in a so short time, and how can i put it in a so little space in my HD, never slow down, never crash, learn it, use it everywere…
may be he’ll do something better… who knows? but now i’m waiting for sss, fake caustics, ngons, gsoc, etc etc, in the future new nurbs, i hope, from nurbana code, the famous sky generator…
i think that the real problem is to find always people keepin’ on the good work; and if in the future moonlight will be even better i’ll use it too!
but i don’t understand another thing: if this guy is so able, why does’nt he help also blender with some patch? if it’s not possible because of old code, how can happen that every week there is something new out there?
i’m afraid i understand few things, but i’m still happy :-)
sorry for my english, bye!
I read though most of the posts here and while I agree with most of the arguments found in them….
aren’t we starting to behave like zealoots? It’s a little startling to see such aggresive defensive behaviour here. we have no need to defend ourselves to begin with. I agree with Tony’s argument.
I love the blender community and I’m constantly impressed with the work people are making in blender. I’ve been evaluating blender for my own uses for a few years now. With every version the temptation to master blender becomes greater. Unfortunately, it’s become quite apparent to me that blender will probably never become the program I’m looking for. I’m just so tired of hearing blenderheads evangelise the dang interface, which I have a hard time even calling a GUI. I’ve had programs where I could work for hours without touching a keyboard, maybe a week or so if I’m just resaving an existing named file. If blender had Truespace’s nav widget so that I could move a camera without using both hands, I probably could have just saved myself $500. This isn’t to say that blender couldn’t be the program for me, but it seems as if everytime a sensible suggestion is given as to how to lure more users to blender (say by giving it an intuitive, graphical, mouse-centric interface alongside the streamlined keyboard-centric interface) it is shot down by people who claim that the current way is the best way.
@ FreakyDude:
No, not zealots. What you see here is:
1) people who are pissed at reading uninformed opinions from slashdotters, most of whom don’t have the fundamental 3d background to judge Blender with any authority
2) the reaction of people who don’t appreciate seeing the spiteful opinion of a competing software author passed off as a news story of Slashdot.
Make no mistakes, I’m an enthusiastic Blender user, but I’ve never torn down another software product or insulted it’s users/developers. Instead I appreciate that Blender has quietly grown to the level where packages I have respected and even considered owning now have users saying “Hey, they have a feature for free that we don’t” or “the only reason I shelled out 900 bucks is now available for free in Blender”. Even if there’s still no love for the GUI, Blender is gaining credibility for it’s features. Our development team should take enormous satisfaction from comments like Trawler’s.
I frequent sites for software such as Lightwave, Zbrush, Max… there are talented 3d modelers there who we can learn a great deal from. Some of their techniques translate reasonably well into Blender. I have always been keenly aware I am a guest in their house and I would never knock on their toolset. You don’t tell a craftsman his tools are poor. It would be poor form, and also untrue. There are still features in those products I hope to see emulated in some way within Blender.
I have seen the source code to Blender v. 2.43. I’d have to say it is an incomprehensible nightmare.
Sure there may be reasons as to why it is coded in C. However, with object-oriented languages as the norm in most programmer’s toolboxes, why hasn’t it made the transition to at least the c++ language? By supporting an object-oriented programming model, Blender not only benefits from the advantages provided by object-oriented programming, it will obtain a handful of developers as well.
If Blender were to port its code to c++, it wouldn’t take much to compile it under the .NET platform. This way, anybody who had “some” proficiency in some language like c++.net, C#, and Vb.net would have the chance of adding his/her desired changes to the application. In an essence…
more coders =better product.
(unless what they say about too many cooks spoiling the broth is true :P)
Ya Yah, make your rants about the evils of .NET and Mono for all I care. I’m proficient in c++, but I’m such a fanboi of C#. I’m certainly sure that I’m not the only one who thinks that the C language is dated. Would it really hurt Bender if it was coded in an object-oriented language? Would it hurt Blender if its code was easier on the eye? Would a language like c++ make that much of a dent in the size and speed at which Blender ran that it no longer becomes as usable as before?
*l like blender just as i like gimp…or inkscape…
*first it gives a sense of honesty not using cracked softs…
*secund things like blender,gimp or inkscape…are luxury guys like me can afford…
*3d is not reality it is artistic task…
*so keep on making it simple and affordable…
*thanks again for blender…you will always end with loving the ui though
As i renember Moonlight|3D fall in sleep for some years and nobody knows if the project will wake up or not. Now the project is life again and they must recognized they arn’t the only good open source solution any more.
Mhm – that’s life, so it is, Blender rocks!
like most everyone about has said, Moonlight died quite a long time ago. i will admit that i still have problems using Blender (partly because i might not actually try hard enough, and partly because using it sucks on my notebook – hint to the Blender developers: it really sucks using Blender on my integrated ATI Xpress 200M; Blender responds really sluggishly, no matter what drivers i seem to have installed). i guess the Moonlight developer wants some attention. okay, so we give it to him…oops, recess is over, back to work, kids! my advice to the Moonlight developer: look for positive ways to speed up your project development. or dump it, and get an entry-level job developing Blender. at the end of the day, it’s really the users that determine (hence my complaining about the way Blender works on my laptop) if your software gets wide use or not (hint: *nix/Windows warlords!). and Blender has a really large user base – annoying that user base will get you shot down before you can take off. it would have been much better if he started a thread that said, “i’d like to build the greatest 3d app in the world – and i’d love you to join me doing it”. that said, he did post on /., which is imho possibly the alias for “idiot hangout”. there are real gems in /., but it’s no different from getting them in real life: you’ve get tons of crap to wade through to get them (no offense intended for /.ers).
now, can someone help me so i can actually use Blender? thanks!
The blender codebase may be arcane – but then again, so is the linux kernel and lots of other things… – old code equals stability – where did the C/C++ programming langauges come from – they weren’t just developed overnight. Then there is the fact that blender has probably just about the most efficient workflow pipeline of any open source software – it’s true, there are others – like ardour for sound – which have yet to become popular or widely used – but moonlight3d and other software just don’t cut it for workflow and speed. All good open source software gets recoded anyway when the codebase becomes to difficult to expand on and the fact that blender has yet to be recoded just shows its stability and robustness – just look at the undo system for instance – the ability for this functionallity was there all along in the codebase – so the implementation was just waiting to be coded. Of course, now I’ve seen moonlight3d I can’t wait to switch to it and abandon blender for it’s *oh so amazing* codebase – and with no gallery or even decent screenshots of the program it doesn’t exactly persuwade me from an artists perspective either!!
-epat. :)
@ilobmirt:
“Would it really hurt Bender if it was coded in an object-oriented language?”
if you really think its worth it, then why don’t you take the initiative and do it yourself?
@indiworks:
“how/why did this story make it to the slashdot frontpage”
probably because they knew it would be talked about a lot (see the sea of comments in that article), which means more hits for their website.
@ATB:
“The only thing that is still mysteriously missing from the official Blender is the Cloth simulation.
That’s the thing I do not understand why this isn’t implemented in the official release yet.”
that is probably because you have been living under a rock
http://www.blender.org/development/release-logs/blender-237a/softbodies/
hint: “cloth simulation” = “soft bodies”
Its impossible to catch blender in a couple of months… thats bullsht, he just want to get atention to his projects!
I’d say that the author’s approach might not be the most well-received, but just the same, it does bring to light one fact – Blender has a well-established base of talented programmers, while Moonlight3D has pretty much all of one. So many have stated that it’s not anywhere close to Blender. That’s obvious. How could it be? It has nowhere near the same level of support. It seems like Moonlight3D is a project that’s really trying to get better – the website is nice, there are forums, and there is recent work on the project. This guy has obviously put quite bit of effort into keeping the project alive. The general response I see here would be tantamount to telling a relatively new Blender user that their effort is worthless because it’s not as good as the work produced by more experienced users. Give the guy some credit.
Bashing through someone else job is a nice way to ask for credit.
Blender has a long history. It’s not as if Ton snapped its finger and made Blender happen.
If Blender is here today it is because it had a long development. And now, I guess Moonlight might be nice, but now it has to grow up. If the developper tried to get friendly with the blender community instead of alienating it?
You don’t get friend by telling someone “your old car utterly sucks gramps, try my bicycle !”
I don’t mind blender’s interface. *shrug*
The only thing I am looking forward to is NGONS and hotkeys, that’s going to be very nice. :-)
K-3D is awsome, i like it very much. But it’s still so basic / in early development and it will take a very long time IMHO to be able to be compared with blender.
@Fhqwhgads
Troll is as Troll does… nuff said!
I think that the blender could be more user friendly.
For the user spent more time creating!
I think blender is userfriendly.
No offense, but if someone is simply lazy to learn 8-10 keykommands, then its not blenders fault.
On the Internet there are lots of great tutorials, moreover, __videotutorials__!
Someone has written here, that it woud be nice, if he could command blender only with mouse.
I hope, that will never happen, simply because commanding with mouse is always much slower, than with keyboard.
Peace! :)
Thank for the developers of blender for there great work!
ps.: Sorry for my english :)
I wonder how Moonlight would look if the same standards for interface design were used to criticize its design, which if I recall correctly looks like it’s ripped off from an old version of Softimage (I did toy with someone’s copy of Softimage for a couple of days.)
I’ve used Lightwave extensively, and MAX for some time, I can appreciate how the two interfaces were created under wildly different philosophies. Lightwave, much like Blender, is geared towards workflow in the sense that almost every option is available through a combination of keystrokes. Functions are well-organized and sepatabs that span all of its control surfaces. MAX? Good tools, but their cluttered interface put me off quite a bit. Most of the time you have to click and click and click through stacks and icon buttons that try to be intuitive but don’t quite make it.
Well, you can’t expect a 3D app to be intuitive. This is a truism from the early days of 3d graphics when we were all happily rendering Phong spheres in POVray with our 386s. There are just too many concepts and functions to master. I do think Blender’s on the right track by dropping this false pretense and just letting you work. It’s a unique interface in many ways, too: it’s more consistent through platforms that any other I’ve seen, it’s zoomable, its layout is completely configurable. Improvable? Sure, like everything in this world.
The other day my coworkers (one of them a software developer, the other a graphic designer, both very competent in their fields) saw me zoom into a ramp panel to add color stops with more precision. Mouths agape, they commented, “dude, that’s the future of interface design!” I felt myself swell with community pride: Blender does score points for innovation. If it is to change, I hope it’s to improve on its own design philosophy, not to follow the fallacious objective of being “intuitive” (as in “you don’t need to follow tutorials”) but to provide a design where dependent functions are closer.
@ Szentirmai-Schön Ãdám
“Someone has written here, that it woud be nice, if he could command blender only with mouse. I hope, that will never happen, simply because commanding with mouse is always much slower, than with keyboard.”
That someone was me and you just proved my point. I’m not trying to change the way you use blender. I can’t work this way long enough to ever get good at it. I don’t code, script, blog or do any other keyboard+mouse activity if I can avoid it. Yes, I know how to spell and write, and I’m also typing this (though not simultaneously using my mouse to do it). You don’t type a picture, you paint one. The mouse is simply a better brush/chisel/spraycan/knife than a keyboard can be, which is why blender does occasionally need me to use it. Also, it is not only 8 or 10 key commands, there appear to be several dozen which change depending on the mode of operation. Why don’t all of these key commands deserve buttons, like Truespace, or menu commands like Wings (which only requires I learn 3 keys and puts them within reach of one finger)? Why even have buttons at all then if they are so cumbersome? Commanding with mouse is always much slower for you maybe, but I’m glad it’s not still 1983.
There’s a reason that this is usually the first AND last thing people complain about blender for. Either you hate it so bad you move on forever, or you don’t care and find it works. It should work. It just shouldn’t have to work only one way.
Casey, most functions are accessible through the menus/buttons.. there are very, very few obscure ones (and some brand new ones) that are missed.. you also have manipulators/mouse gestures to complete the picture. So it isn’t true that you need to use hotkeys to use blender, it’s just much much faster if you do. You can also just learn the hotkeys for common actions, and use the menus for everything else.
Gmueckl, the author of Moonlight3D => Sounds to me like gerillia marketing…
Yep, marketing. However, he didn’t make himself any favor. Moonlight 3d doesn’t stand a chance against Blender, and perhaps some improvements they add to it will be taken from Blender sources. Blender is alive and kicking, hard! I really hope to see the improvements to the interface, it can only get better.
Yeah, it’s probably inevitable I will use blender someday. That’s another really good thing about blender; it’s not going to go away!
Testing, testing… (to see if I’m finally able to post comments).